Overtones Question

Regarding altissimo, specifically, Helen, Jaques, et al, does it make a difference to be able to do a full series of overtones if you can hit all those altissimo note if you use a fingering for them? I'm curious because I've mainly played low instruments throughout my playing career -- bari sax, bass clarinet, contrabass clarinet -- and, as mentioned, I never had much need for extreme altissimo. When I've had to, I did learn fingerings and was able to play those notes. Are we talking about two completely different things or two different ways of getting at the same result?

The way I was introduced to overtones, and the way I continue to use them, is for voicing. Before I was taught the altissimo register, my instructor spent months working on the overtone series with me. The Sigurd Rascher book Top Tones for the Saxophone was the book that my instructor used with me ATT. In order to successfully play overtones, you of course have to hear the notes in your head before they come out of the horn.

Altissimo playing just takes this to the next level, since now you're combining different fingerings to obtain different notes, as well as the hearing of notes before they come out of the horn. What makes altissimo challenging is that the notes are--or can be--in quick progression, and in some cases may not be within a normal sound range of what the tune calls for. (If for example, your playing outside the changes.) To illustrate this last point, let me give you an example from my own playing experience.

In the blues band Deception I worked in for a decade, we covered the famous Blues Brother tune (I Got Everything I Need) Almost. ATM I can't remember what key we played in, but the tenor solo started on a sustained F#5 and did a glissando down. The problem for me was that F# was not a normal note in the blues key we were playing in. I had a hell of a time trying to hear a F# before it came out of my horn. At rehearsal I blew it more than 50% of the time. It became a running joke in the band. For performances I only f'd it up once--and that was the first time we played it publicly--and the song was a hugely popular one for us, so we played it almost at all performances.

So getting back to your question, the overtone series is a tool that allows you to develop your voicing. When I've been away from altissimo playing for a while, I go back to my overtone series to get my muscle memory in my throat, etc. back. Make sense?
 
Makes more sense, Helen. Thanks.

I mentioned that I played contrabass clarinet. When I was told to play the instrument, I had never heard one before. My clarinet/saxophone teacher at the time said that the contrabass was made more to be felt than heard. I think I combined a nice, growly tone that I had developed from playing bass clarinet and bari sax, but I had to think lower.

I do agree with you that if you're trying to play any note and you don't have a good conception of how it's supposed to sound, you're not going to hit it right.
 
I do agree with you that if you're trying to play any note and you don't have a good conception of how it's supposed to sound, you're not going to hit it right.

Yes and no. This is what happened the very first time I played a bass sax:

I was in Steve Goodson's studio with him and Paul Coats. At first I played what was going to be my Buescher bass, in a very tentative way. I tried a few notes, and couldn't quite figure out where my fingers went. Once my fingers went where they were supposed to, I just started playing arpeggios, just like I also do on my other saxes. Paul and Steve both laughed and said I was a natural bass player, but I told them I wasn't clear on a tonal concept.

Remember this was 2000, and recorded bass tracks were not available like the are today.

As they pointed out: Hey, this is a bass saxophone, there is is no "tonal concept" per say, since most people have never heard one, no one knows what they are supposed to sound like.

The moral of the story is: Sometimes you just make it up as you go along, and it works out really good anyway. :D
 
(...) Before I was taught the altissimo register, my instructor spent months working on the overtone series with me.(...)

Altissimo playing just takes this to the next level, since now you're combining different fingerings to obtain different notes, as well as the hearing of notes before they come out of the horn. What makes altissimo challenging is that the notes are--or can be--in quick progression, and in some cases may not be within a normal sound range of what the tune calls for. (...)
So getting back to your question, the overtone series is a tool that allows you to develop your voicing. When I've been away from altissimo playing for a while, I go back to my overtone series to get my muscle memory in my throat, etc. back. Make sense?

+12 (at least). Even for a rather seasoned, if not brilliant, player like me, tackling overtone and altissimo is a tough challenge and takes, for me anyway, a loooong time.

On another level, the tendancy to overuse overtone and altissimi is pretty common. During one of the first Montreux Jazz Festival, around 1970, I remember entering the hall of the now burnt down old casino where a frantic jam session was occurring. Not seing the players yet I wondered who the sop sax was. No sop sax: it was John Surman, the British free-jazzish baritone who never went lower than the third octave for about 10 minutes : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9UNP7njOFc from 1:45 on...
He is more romantic nowadays...
 
On another level, the tendancy to overuse overtone and altissimi is pretty common.

True. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. :emoji_rage:

That said, one of the defining features of the band Deception was the screaming saxophone sounds of yours truly. The reason I played so high regularly was that the audience, as well as the band leader--lead guitar player--loved it. I soloed in every song, and the higher I played, and the longer I sustained those F#5 and even higher notes--you know, the ones that make you feel like you're having an aneurysm--the louder the applause was. People loved that sh#!.

When I left the band, they thought of replacing me with another sax player, but realized they couldn't. My solos and musical conversations with the lead guitar were too unique. So now they work as a 4 piece and at ever show hear: "Where's your sax player?" , "The band's not the same without Helen.", and other comments in a similar vein.
 
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Ah. Getting back to can and should. I'll also note that it was pretty easy to play altissimo on both the bass and contrabass clarinets for me. I just thought it didn't sound that good. That's why I have a Bb clarinet ....

I have mentioned that I've heard folks play multiple pitches of saxophone and they make them sound just like one big sax with an incredible range. I don't like this style. I think that you can make, say, a C melody tenor sound more reedy and a lot less like a Bb tenor with a reduced range. Again, not to say that if you don't play it this way that it's "wrong." It's just not (as) appealing to me. Remember: my favorite sax player is Paul Desmond and I prefer saxophone ensembles a lot more than any other sax music.

I can also say that, while I sometimes do quite like hearing screamin' tenor, like the player in the Saturday Night Live band (Lenny Pickett), I like to hear more exploration of the lower register of the horn. Too many folks avoid the lower register like it's got the plague or something.

My thoughts on clarinet tone are similar. I like a beefy bass clarinet tone. I like a richer Bb clarinet sound with a bit of vibrato. As a nice example, I have two recordings from two different "name" players of a Peter Schickele piece, one recorded on tape and one on CD. The tape is miles better because that performer has an awful lot more expression in his tone.
 
(...) The reason I played so high regularly was that the audience, as well as the band leader--lead guitar player--loved it. I soloed in every song, and the higher I played, and the longer I sustained those F#5 and even higher notes--you know, the ones that make you feel like you're having an aneurysm--the louder the applause was. People loved that sh#!

After Earl Bostic launched the stratospheric side of the alto in jazz and old Rn'B, another saxist capitalizing on his mastering the highest notes is, of course David Sanborn. Check him out at the end of this (excellent to me) gig with Joey Defrancesco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hXoG0fpsCI

J
 
FWIW, I like Sanborn more when he plays music by other folks. He's definitely got chops.
 
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