Do you think that was high? Doesn't strike me as high for here. Photos were good, so shouldn't be too many surprises - and we have good consumer protection. And there are some collectors watching carefully. The good stuff goes a lot higher, while something common and playable like a Welklang or similar will often make over 300.
Rarest Sax on eBay this Week
- Thread starter pete
- Start date
Do you think that was high? Doesn't strike me as high for here. Photos were good, so shouldn't be too many surprises - and we have good consumer protection. And there are some collectors watching carefully. The good stuff goes a lot higher, while something common and playable like a Welklang or similar will often make over 300.
I know prices in Europe are quite a bit higher than they are here in North America. So for Germany, maybe it's not expensive if you're a collector, and you know what you're getting. From a North American perspective, with no knowledge of what the horn is, it seems rather high. That's all.
It is a very pretty horn, but pretty horns over here, when no one knows what they are, don't sell for much.
I find the price differences very interesting between Germany and N. America in the Hohner Presidents. Those are the horns that I have been following for a while now. Junky Hohners in Germany sell for much more than Presidents in beautiful condition in the US. What's up with that?
I've also noticed price differences in the Dörfler & Jörka horns, as well as some of the other vintage German horns. However, these are all name brand horns, with a known history.
This sax you pointed out was not mentioned by brand, nor was it immediately recognizable as being by one of major saxophone manufacturers. I suspect that there were many small cottage industry shops that turned out saxophones, many of which were likely quite good. It could be that this horn is from one of these small shops. That's just a guess on my part though.
It is a very pretty horn, but pretty horns over here, when no one knows what they are, don't sell for much.
I find the price differences very interesting between Germany and N. America in the Hohner Presidents. Those are the horns that I have been following for a while now. Junky Hohners in Germany sell for much more than Presidents in beautiful condition in the US. What's up with that?
I've also noticed price differences in the Dörfler & Jörka horns, as well as some of the other vintage German horns. However, these are all name brand horns, with a known history.
This sax you pointed out was not mentioned by brand, nor was it immediately recognizable as being by one of major saxophone manufacturers. I suspect that there were many small cottage industry shops that turned out saxophones, many of which were likely quite good. It could be that this horn is from one of these small shops. That's just a guess on my part though.
Makes collecting easier..
Not sure why, but I think it's the Keilwerth involvement.
The emblem on it is bugging me, I've seen it before, but can't remember where/when. Maybe a couple of bidders recognised it.... But the least I'd expect it to go for would be about 100 euros. parts horns go for 50-100, and this, clearly, is a lot better than that.
Another factor here is that the buyer hasa lot more protection, and junk horns are sold as being for parts, restoration, or for rebuild. The sellers are usually clear about this, so the buying risk is less and I think this reflects in the price. Often a playable horn will be described as 'OK, but would be better if serviced' or similar.
As far as I know, you're right about the small shops, and workers at the factories would buy a body, keys and so on and build horns at home. They'd also take work from the factories do it at home then deliver it back to the factories for payment. afik there's a lot of commonality in parts between the makes. And it makes identifying these horns really difficult if there isn't a maker's inscription. Stencils are common, often with a music shop's name on it as the only id.
Lots of info on saxwelt.de, but I guess you know that already.
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I suspect that you're correct.
In the case of the Hohner President, I suspect it's because the horns are German, and people in Germany actually know who Max Keilwerth is. Over here, most people don't know about him, and many think that the Presidents were stencil horns, or whatever. There are so many rumours and misconceptions floating around about them. Or at least there were. I think my Hohner page is slowly starting to have an impact.
In the case of D&J, when I bought my horn over 2 years ago, there was virtually no information available in English. I posted a question in the Woodwind Forum when I first saw the DeVilliers in a store, but none of the sources that I or Pete listed (which were all the English sources on the 'Net at the time) had the complete story. Interestingly enough, not even Germany had the complete story behind the horns. It wasn't until last summer that Uwe Ladwig published the company history in Sonic Sax & Brass. It is Uwe's D&J research that I have translated (with Uwe's permission) and added to--as I've found new data--to create my D&J page.
If someone people recognized it, that might explain the # of bids. Either that, or 2 people just got very busy, and tried to outbid each other. :???: I think it's an interesting horn, and it's quite possible that because Europe has many people than North America, you'll have more collectors and wanna' be repair people. Add to that the higher prices in Europe, and the chances of something so nondescript selling for over $325 US makes sense.
Max & Julius worked from home when they first started. At the time they worked for the Adler company. And Joseph Dörfler worked for Julius Keilwerth in a similar situation before he started D&J. We see this a lot with Italian horns as well. My mysterious Gallotone tenor is a great example. It looks like a mix of Orsi and Rampone & Cazzani. Even the current R&C owner didn't know. He figured it most likely came from one of the small cottage industry shops in Italy.
saxwelt? What's saxwelt? ;-)
A saxwelt is what you get when you're trying to switch between horns in a gig and you have all of a beat to do it in and smack your mouthpiece into your face. Saxwelts hurt.
As y'all can see, I did wax a bit prosaic about this horn, above. I'd go out on a limb and say it's probably a decent playing horn for that era, but I think the era is 1930ish, rather than 1900ish. Again, it's the combination of Conn design with Evette-Schaeffer design: while the latter is turn-of-the-last-century, the microtuner was after 1914. Single-side bell keys? Well, while Conn started out with them, they went to split when the Wonder Improved horns were introduced and didn't go back until the 1930s. Hey, 100 years sounds better than 80, right?
231 Euros isn't that much (about $325 US and $10.1 bajillion Canadian) for a horn that may have similar playing characteristics to a Conn "Transitional" horn when all the horn is repaired. And you're right in the fact that saxophones do have a bit of a premium in Europe.
I think I need to go back and re-write that article on horns that are really good but few people pay attention to.
As y'all can see, I did wax a bit prosaic about this horn, above. I'd go out on a limb and say it's probably a decent playing horn for that era, but I think the era is 1930ish, rather than 1900ish. Again, it's the combination of Conn design with Evette-Schaeffer design: while the latter is turn-of-the-last-century, the microtuner was after 1914. Single-side bell keys? Well, while Conn started out with them, they went to split when the Wonder Improved horns were introduced and didn't go back until the 1930s. Hey, 100 years sounds better than 80, right?
231 Euros isn't that much (about $325 US and $10.1 bajillion Canadian) for a horn that may have similar playing characteristics to a Conn "Transitional" horn when all the horn is repaired. And you're right in the fact that saxophones do have a bit of a premium in Europe.
I think I need to go back and re-write that article on horns that are really good but few people pay attention to.
Pete got it nearly right, I think of it as when a metal tenor mouthpiece swings back and cracks your lip against your teeth...
or maybe www.saxwelt.de
Not until I've got a prewar Kohlert tenor, please! I don't want to pay SML prices for one.
BTW, this was relisted. It now has "best offer."
Makes you wonder, though, how come $22,875.75? That's a rather precise amount.
now it's BIN of $19.999.99
or best offer (probably above 19,599.99 ) ...
and they finished the overhaul, but did not include any new pictures with keywork on the horn.
Tanabe alto. Conn 6M Artist clone. (From Quinn, of course.)
Hmm. My medication appears not to have worn off fully. It was fairly hard to type that last sentence. I think I'll log out, now ....
Hmm. My medication appears not to have worn off fully. It was fairly hard to type that last sentence. I think I'll log out, now ....
Hey, the Tanabe is only a buck and quarter. When did you every see anything from Quinn for that price?
BTW Pete... The Cdn. dollar is above par (and has been for some time) in case you've not watched the financial bit of the news lately. It is predicted to remain so for some time to come. You'll have to save your "about $325 US and $10.1 bajillion Canadian" jokes for a little while. ;-)
BTW Pete... The Cdn. dollar is above par (and has been for some time) in case you've not watched the financial bit of the news lately. It is predicted to remain so for some time to come. You'll have to save your "about $325 US and $10.1 bajillion Canadian" jokes for a little while. ;-)
Getting back to that no-name sax on the German eBay site for a minute, here's an example of the kinds of prices and the # of bids that I am more used to when talking about something obscure. I had forgotten that I had saved this horn in my research list on eBay.
Although it's not as in as nice condition as the horn on the German site, even really nice horns sell for dirt cheap. For example, this Rene Dumont just sold for $152.50, and only 8 people bid on it.
Although it's not as in as nice condition as the horn on the German site, even really nice horns sell for dirt cheap. For example, this Rene Dumont just sold for $152.50, and only 8 people bid on it.
Your comment about the US vs Canadian dollars made me wonder if part of the discrepancy isn't down to exchange rate fluctuations. Soon after the euro was launched it dropped against the US dollar, eventually sinking as low as about 70c. However it's climbed since than and is worth about 1.20 or more.
Trouble is, by the time shipping and customs/import duty have been paid, there's no point in bringing a sax in from the US.
Wish our prices were that low...
Trouble is, by the time shipping and customs/import duty have been paid, there's no point in bringing a sax in from the US.
Wish our prices were that low...
Well, the prices for Buffet SDAs and Dynactions rose a bit, too
My blog(s) don't get nearly as much traffic as saxpics.com did, so I wouldn't worry. Too much.
lol...
According to the economists (of which I am not one) one of the main reasons that the Cdn. dollar is doing so well compared to the US one is that the Canadian economy is recovering much better from the recession.
Nope. I'll use 'em when I have the chance
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However, the Uebel was being marketed as a "wall hanger" and is missing parts and the Dumont "will need to be looked at by your repairman" -- not to mention that the amount of misspellings in the ad is an eBay warning sign to not bid on whatever's being sold. That's not to diminish the point that obscure saxophones generally do sell for less on eBay and a lot of those sellers put keywords like "Selmer" in those ads.
Obscure definitely doesn't = bad. When I started researching the SML, for instance, that was an incredibly obscure name. Now it's not and the prices for "Rev. D" and Gold Medal instruments are now in the "priced like a professional horn" category.
As an aside, I've talked so much about Yamaha instruments over the years, here, on SOTW and on my websites. If just Fred Cicetti and me caused the price of SML to go up, I wonder if that's the case with Yamaha ....
Raymond DuBois Essor
http://cgi.ebay.de/collector-saxophone-alto-RAYMOND-DUBOIS-prototype-/190504193641 (I've uploaded a couple pics into an album here for when the eBay ad goes poof).
I've seen two of these horns, so I doubt it's a "prototype." However, the auction price is currently 1510,00 Euros. That's $2200 (give or take) US.
I'll write something on these horns on my blog. Just gimme some time.
http://cgi.ebay.de/collector-saxophone-alto-RAYMOND-DUBOIS-prototype-/190504193641 (I've uploaded a couple pics into an album here for when the eBay ad goes poof).
I've seen two of these horns, so I doubt it's a "prototype." However, the auction price is currently 1510,00 Euros. That's $2200 (give or take) US.
I'll write something on these horns on my blog. Just gimme some time.
I see right hand pearls for high D, E, Eb, and F, plus left or right hand low C#, adjustable thumb hook, RH G# trill lever, and forked Eb. Miss anything?