Requesting Guidance on Bass Intonation Problem

Dave

Hi Folks,
First time here, hoping to get your input on an apparent intonation problem with an old Pedler (wooden) Bass Clarinet I'm trying to make operational. It was a good deal on eBay, but came without a neck, so I bought a Bundy neck, which needed some modification to fit, and a Portnoy mouthpiece (from good memories of using a Portnoy on my Soprano Buffett in high school and All-State and college). Specifically, the end of the neck that fits in the clarinet needed a little grinding down - just a bit, AND it also needed a hole drilled in it to accommodate the octave key that comes off the part of the horn where the neck gets inserted.

So, just got the tweaked neck back from my local shop, and tried it today for the first time. BUT, it's not playing in tune with itself. Darn. Checking it with a tuner, the lower-register C (instrument note, not concert) is more than a half-step flat (maybe 150 "cents"), the low G is close to exactly one half-step flat, and the low F and E are sharper than one half-step flat, say maybe 75-85 cents flat. Open G comes out as a sharp concert Eb (it should be a concert F). Distress.

So, OK, my bad (or naive assumption, anyway), the neck's probably too long. Can anyone (like, maybe, someone with an old Pedler?) provide input on how long the neck wants to be, or point me in the direction of someone who can provide a neck that would be appropriate (assuming the problem is the neck)?

Alternatively, I might be able to take it back to the shop and get a piece cut out of it, if I only knew how long to make it. After all, to grind the end of the neck that goes in the horn, the shop de-soldered the last couple inches from the main part of the tube, and turned that a bit on a lathe, then soldered it back together (good job, too!). So, I suppose they could do that again, this time cutting some off from the middle of the tube, then re-solder it. But, how to know how long it should be?! Can anyone help?

I'm still looking forward to pulling out my old Benny Goodman book, and whaling away on the Bass. So, any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time, and hope you all are doing well. - Dave
 
It definitely sounds like the neck is too long, since that obviously makes open notes (throat notes, etc.) flatter than the lowest notes. I don't have a Pedler bass clarinet but I can offer two things.

I have a Pedler alto clarinet ith the original neck and it has a very problematic intonation. I've made a lot of modification to try to improve which helped and unfortunately also came with other compormises. Point is: don't necessarily expect good intonation from your Pedler bass clarinet.

Also, my bass clarinet has a tunable neck, and I can check how much I need to open it to get notes to play similar to what you describe. Then possibly this is approx the same as what you should remove. I assume removing metal from your neck means unsoldering, removing, and then resoldering the tenon and/or socket. Keep in mind the angle of mouthpiece at the end after you do this.

Nitai
 
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The Pedler neck is specific to the Pedler bass, no other bass neck will interchange with it without being a custom made.
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The size of the neck is a result of the Automatic double register mechanism with both vents on the body of the instrument. It is complicated but plays quite well. It also makes using an aftermarket case almost impossible.


As to intonation on a Pedler, it is quite even across all registers, just don't try to play above 440, it isn't going to happen with a standard mouthpiece.
 
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I just checked and if I opened my neck the most possible, which is approx 3.5cm, then the open G plays between a concert D# to a concert E. I couldn't open so much to play an Eb (and still blow normally). So I'm guessing you'd need the neck shortened by about 4cm-5cm (but this is only a logical guess, since the bore and other things can affect this).

Carl H. said:
The Pedler neck is specific to the Pedler bass, no other bass neck will interchange with it without being a custom made.
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Do you mean modified (as opposed to made)? What is the other neck in your photo? It is obvious the Pedler neck is shorter, but is there a differfence in the bore (if there is, how much)?

Are are absolutely sure that the other neck, shortened, even with a new tenon made, wouldn't work on the Pedler? If not, why? That would be very significantly less expensive than having a new neck made specifically for the clarinet. I know of several occasions where different bass necks were modified for different instruments and it workd very ok.

If you do have the neck shortened, notice how shortening it only on one side is going to affect the mouthpiece angle. It might be a good idea to decide exactly how much to remove and from what side so at the end you have something closer to the mouthpiece angle you prefer.

Carl H. said:
As to intonation on a Pedler, it is quite even across all registers, just don't try to play above 440, it isn't going to happen with a standard mouthpiece.
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Didn't Pedler make several models? Do all same models really play similarly enough to say something like "just don't try to play above 440"? I wouldn't generalize like this. My Pedler alto's problem was actually very sharp throat notes and a few other sharp notes (with a very regular mouthpiece, and the original neck). I wouldn't assume that all Pedler altos has the identical problem. Even more when intonation can vary a lot by mouthpiece and especially player.

I hope this helps.

Nitai
 
The 2nd neck is from a vito and probably quite similar to the bundy neck. The Pedler bass I'm referring to it a Custom Built professional model. I have no intonation issues other than when the brass players get warm and go sharp. I am in the process of having a mouthpiece modified to adress these situations.

As far as taking measurements, I could do that, but it will take some time. I take care of my children and trying to measure bore/volume with a 15 month old present is nearly impossible.

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From a quick visual inspection, the Pedlers interior bore is smaller but the walls are thicker so the exterior dimension is larger - relative to the Vito neck. Lengthwise, removing both the tenon and mouthpiece receiver of the Vito is approximately the correct length for the original neck I have here. I won't attempt to measure actual bore or volume til the kids are in bed.
 
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That Vito neck has similarity to most Bundy and other non-pro Selmer basses, IIRC.

It occurs to me that I know four or five companies off the top of my head that make custom saxophone necks and a couple that make double-reed bocals, but I don't know of a single company that makes custom clarinet necks. Hey, there are custom barrels out there ....
 
I have made a request on a professional band repair forum for a Pedler neck. Someone might have one in their "bone pile". This would be the easiest and possibly cheapest solution to your problem.

John
 
John, if the original poster doesn't come back, I would be interested in another Pedler neck if the price is reasonable (cheap).
 
I'm back, I'm back. And, yes, I would be interested in a used Pedler neck, if one could be located, so many thanks for your efforts, John. And, thanks to Nitai and Pete for your replies, too. Finally, Carl, thanks for your picture. If I'm not able to find an actual neck, I can try to do some measurement of the difference from the pictures, and cut down the Bundy neck further, so there is hope. I know what you mean about young ones making other activities a challenge. I raised my son from 3 to 5 on my own, so good luck to you! I would think the interior dimension of the neck is not so important from the intonation point of view, although I would think it may have a non-zero impact on the tone itself, but hey, I'm just going to try to keep "moving forward", and see how it turns out. Oh, and thanks, Nitai, for your caution on the neck angle; definitely a good thing to keep in mind. John, if you hear anything about a used Pedler neck, I'm all ears. Thanks again to everyone. I'll try to keep my eyes on the site in the future, in general, in case I'm able to contribute in some way. - Dave
 
Haha I saw John's post asking about a Pedler neck before coming back to read this thread and was wondering if it was a coincidence.... :)

Just to clarify, Carl, I didn't mean to doubt what you notice with your own Pedler bass clarinet, just the generalization you made, and the suggestion that only a Pedler neck or a custom made neck will work. I think another shortened has a chance to work ok.

I also didn't mean that you spend a lot of time measuring so accurate the bores, etc. Just a general idea to see if for some clear reason a shortened Bundy neck wouldn't work.

By the way, my Pedler alto is also the Custom Built model. Are you sure this is a professional model or is this a guess because of the name? Judging from playing it alone I wouldn't call it a professional model.

Dave, the bore diameter of the neck does affect intonation. It affects especially for notes that are closer to the neck i.e. a lot of the air column is the neck (like throat notes). I know because I have tried this before. However this doesn't mean it will be a significant problem, as long as you try and see. Not so easy but..... unless you find a Pedler neck that might be your best and most cost effective option. Hopefully you will find a Pedler neck.

Nitai
 
My warm, close, personal friend (in Houston socialite terms; they call every celebrity by those terms, as long as they have been introduced at least once) Charlie Bay (who I haven't seen for many a year) once claimed that he could make one of his re-angled necks for any bass. Not the cheapest way to go, though.
 
SOTSDO said:
My warm, close, personal friend (in Houston socialite terms; they call every celebrity by those terms, as long as they have been introduced at least once) Charlie Bay (who I haven't seen for many a year) once claimed that he could make one of his re-angled necks for any bass. Not the cheapest way to go, though.
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I would suspect a different Bass would be a more cost effective way to go, than a custom high end neck.

As to the Pedler Bass, In reading everything I come across on Pedler it seems he did 2 things pretty well, his top line metal clarinets and Bass clarinets. Everything else is a level or 2 down from those two specific lines.
 
LOL - Thanks, Nitai, for your input on the neck inner diameter, and thanks to Sotsdo for the "Southern-flavored" referral possibility, and to Carl and others for your guidance on the scramble-to-make-it-work-somehow or go-back-to-the-buying-board decision. Since I also, like Carl, have a belief that the Pedler basses (and metal Sopranos) were good, and since it is wood, I'm inclined to stick with the Pedler, and try to bring it along. Based on Carl's helpful pictures, I'll either take it back to my shop, or take it as an opportunity to learn to use a torch, myself, since I'm already an excellent solderer, welding is "on the list", and I do want to learn to "sweat" (a plumbing term). If anyone is aware of a used Pedler neck showing up, I would appreciate being notified via email, but otherwise I guess this is going to have to go a little lower on the ol' priority list, since I'm trying to prove my wife wrong, after she said the studio re-org I'm currently embroiled in would take a year (!). Thanks again to everyone for your helpful guidance. I'll get back with any news on how it all turns out, even if it's many months from now. Here's another aphorism from the South, often used to biting effect by Southern belles on one another, but this time offered for your amusement, at my own expense: "Bless his heart", buying that Bass Clarinet without a neck (meaning it was a particularly ill-adivsed move, in this case). Moral for others - such instruments being sold without a neck may not be as easy to deal with as you might have thought. - Dave
 
Nexk modification

I you have a donor neck longer than the correct Pedler length, I could cut and resolder it (with a more soprano-like mouthpiece angle a la Charles Bay) to the correct length, for $150.
 
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