S20 Silver-Sonic vs. Buescher 400 TH&C vs. Yani T9937
- Thread starter pete
- Start date
Re: Super 20 vs. Buescher 400 vs. Yanagisawa T9937
I'll do sections.
> I appreciate what you are doing here
Thanks for the compliments about my former website. I sold it about 8 months ago. The new owners haven't done much updating -- other than taking down the photo galleries
.
I'm now doing a few other sax-related projects:
* My yearly calendar project: http://www.thesax.info/mediawiki-1.10.0 ... ar_project
* My serial number/model chart project: http://thesax.info/serials.htm
* The Woodwind Forum (I'm an Administrator there): http://www.woodwindforum.com/community
I also do still occasionally contribute to Sax-on-the-Web (http://saxontheweb.net).
> I was amazed to see a beautiful looking Beuscher with an undeslung octave mechanism most like the King Super 20.
"Buescher". There was also a Paul Beuscher company. Don't get confused .
The Bueschers with the underslung octave mechanisms were the early 400s. You're probably referring specifically to http://www.saxpics.com/buescher/thumbs/400/header2.jpg, which is actually a replated horn. The New Aristocrat didn't have an underslung octave mech. The pages I wrote on the Bueschers is at http://www.saxpics.com/buescher. If you click the links (pictures), you'll find answers to your a) and b) questions.
> but I chose bright silver because I believed that it would give a more efficient sound
Plating has no appreciable effect on tone. It's arguable if what the sax is made out of (e.g. sterling silver as opposed to brass) makes any real difference, either. For lots more info, please see http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/sh ... stcount=20
> Yamaha YTL-61
No such horn. "YTS-61": Yamaha Tenor Saxophone - Model 61.
> how well you think it compares to the best of the King Super 20 Silversonics
The closer "match" to a King Silver-Sonic from the Buescher stable would be the 400, not a New Aristocrat. Specifically the "Top Hat and Cane" (TH&C) engraved horns (http://www.saxpics.com/buescher/400.htm). Note that Buescher and Selmer produced the TH&C for a very long time and there were several versions of the horn, as there are several versions of the S20, so you need to be very specific with which model you're referring to. I'm only going to refer to the post-war "big bell" TH&C throughout this e-mail (see http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Buescher%20400.html).
1. Please note that the Buescher 400 did not have a sterling neck and bell, like the Silver-Sonic does (sterling neck depends on year on the Silver-Sonic, that is). The 400 TH&C did have a silver tone ring around the bell lip, which arguably does add a bit extra "oomph" to the bell keys tones.
2. While both the 400 and the Silver-Sonic were primarily designed as jazz horns, they have different pedigrees: the 400 comes from a line of horns that were made more with a nod to classical players, so they have exceptional intonation, quick keywork, and good response. If I really wanted to point to a simular horn to the Silver-Sonic, I'd say that the Conn Connqueror 30M would probably be that horn. If you want modern, maybe the Keilwerth SX90. The 400 is probably more simular to the French-made SML Gold Medal. If you want modern, that Yanagisawa is relatively close. No horn I'm aware of has the unique behind-the-bell keys of the 400.
3. Technically -- and I mean that in the truest sense of the word -- the Buescher 400 is a better horn. It has a whole bunch of features you want on a horn: Norton gold-plated screw-in springs, Snap-On pads, nickel keyrods, attempts at ergonomic keywork design, etc. Additionally, Kings have never been known for their intonation. Bueschers always have been.
However, it's comparing apples and oranges. In my opinion, if you're a pro, no one is going to question your choice of horn. I, personally, if money wasn't an object, would buy a modern instrument. I play baritone, so my options are a tad more limited than tenor players, but I'd take a look at the high-end Yanis, although I'd possibly end up with an SX90. I already have a good idea how the YBS-62 feels and plays (I owned a YBS-52; price WAS an object). I'm fairly positive that the Selmer S80 wouldn't be the horn I'd pick, as far as baritones go. They're not overly impressive, to me.
The reason to go modern is detailed at viewtopic.php?f=152&t=292 and in several other places.
> Could you also tell me something about how you found the Yanagisawa T9937 solid silver sax?
I used to do daily eBay/web searching for interesting horns. I also had a few from Kessler Music in one of my calendars.
1. If you want more info on Yani stuff, come on over to the Woodwind Forum. Ed is the acknowledged Yani expert. I just posted the pic because it's a very pretty horn. I didn't bother researching them for saxpics.com because they're not exactly "vintage".
2. I know that some folks (and Yani themselves) call the sterling Yanis "Silver Sonics", but that's only because of the sterling silver, not because the horns have any relation at all to the King Silver-Sonic.
3. The official Yanagisawa page on the T9937 is at http://www.yanagisawasax.co.jp/en/tenor/9937/. See also http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/sax/yaniengraving.htm
4. The Yanagisawa horns have always been copies of a Selmer Mark VI and they've improved on that design over the years, making them some of the nicest pro horns out there. They're also the winners of the most expensive factory-production horns out there, with the approximately $12,000 A992GP alto in pink gold (I can't even find a price for the tenor). They're primarily known for their soprano and sopranino horns, though -- because they have excellent intonation.
5. I'm not overly enamored with the Selmer Mark VI. I think they're extremely good horns, but also extremely overpriced for what they are (if you wanna pay $11,000 for a tenor -- which someone did -- try the Inderbinen, instead, and save a few thousand in the process). And, for bari, I hear that the SBA is better. In other words, asking me to compare something to a 5-digit Mark VI isn't really going to be that helpful for you.
So, if I had to choose between a Yani bari and a Selmer bari, I dunno. I haven't played the high-end Yani baris, so I have nothing to compare against. I'm not overly fond of the S80 bari -- I think the altissimo is overly resistant. I really liked the VI low Bb bari, but I really need a low A. I'd never pick the King S20 baritone (no Silver-Sonic baris) because of the intonation.
FWIW, the best tenor sax evar is very arguably the early SML Gold Medal. Hey, guess who they won that gold medal over way back when? It's a toss-up if these horns compare to any modern pro model -- and, as I said, if you're a pro and you pick out a horn, no one's going to question your choice.
> One other thing, does the New Aristocrat have the Selmer left hand cluster system or the horrible straight across system that is the main blight on Chu Berry Conn 10M saxes?
There's a closeup pic of the G# cluster on the 400 (which is what I think you're really wanting to talk about) at http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/bues ... bues-4.jpg. If you really want a New Aristocrat pic, try http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/bues ... 7apalm.jpg
If there's anything else, please write back.
I'll do sections.
> I appreciate what you are doing here
Thanks for the compliments about my former website. I sold it about 8 months ago. The new owners haven't done much updating -- other than taking down the photo galleries
.I'm now doing a few other sax-related projects:
* My yearly calendar project: http://www.thesax.info/mediawiki-1.10.0 ... ar_project
* My serial number/model chart project: http://thesax.info/serials.htm
* The Woodwind Forum (I'm an Administrator there): http://www.woodwindforum.com/community
I also do still occasionally contribute to Sax-on-the-Web (http://saxontheweb.net).
> I was amazed to see a beautiful looking Beuscher with an undeslung octave mechanism most like the King Super 20.
"Buescher". There was also a Paul Beuscher company. Don't get confused
.The Bueschers with the underslung octave mechanisms were the early 400s. You're probably referring specifically to http://www.saxpics.com/buescher/thumbs/400/header2.jpg, which is actually a replated horn. The New Aristocrat didn't have an underslung octave mech. The pages I wrote on the Bueschers is at http://www.saxpics.com/buescher. If you click the links (pictures), you'll find answers to your a) and b) questions.
> but I chose bright silver because I believed that it would give a more efficient sound
Plating has no appreciable effect on tone. It's arguable if what the sax is made out of (e.g. sterling silver as opposed to brass) makes any real difference, either. For lots more info, please see http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/sh ... stcount=20
> Yamaha YTL-61
No such horn. "YTS-61": Yamaha Tenor Saxophone - Model 61.
> how well you think it compares to the best of the King Super 20 Silversonics
The closer "match" to a King Silver-Sonic from the Buescher stable would be the 400, not a New Aristocrat. Specifically the "Top Hat and Cane" (TH&C) engraved horns (http://www.saxpics.com/buescher/400.htm). Note that Buescher and Selmer produced the TH&C for a very long time and there were several versions of the horn, as there are several versions of the S20, so you need to be very specific with which model you're referring to. I'm only going to refer to the post-war "big bell" TH&C throughout this e-mail (see http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Buescher%20400.html).
1. Please note that the Buescher 400 did not have a sterling neck and bell, like the Silver-Sonic does (sterling neck depends on year on the Silver-Sonic, that is). The 400 TH&C did have a silver tone ring around the bell lip, which arguably does add a bit extra "oomph" to the bell keys tones.
2. While both the 400 and the Silver-Sonic were primarily designed as jazz horns, they have different pedigrees: the 400 comes from a line of horns that were made more with a nod to classical players, so they have exceptional intonation, quick keywork, and good response. If I really wanted to point to a simular horn to the Silver-Sonic, I'd say that the Conn Connqueror 30M would probably be that horn. If you want modern, maybe the Keilwerth SX90. The 400 is probably more simular to the French-made SML Gold Medal. If you want modern, that Yanagisawa is relatively close. No horn I'm aware of has the unique behind-the-bell keys of the 400.
3. Technically -- and I mean that in the truest sense of the word -- the Buescher 400 is a better horn. It has a whole bunch of features you want on a horn: Norton gold-plated screw-in springs, Snap-On pads, nickel keyrods, attempts at ergonomic keywork design, etc. Additionally, Kings have never been known for their intonation. Bueschers always have been.
However, it's comparing apples and oranges. In my opinion, if you're a pro, no one is going to question your choice of horn. I, personally, if money wasn't an object, would buy a modern instrument. I play baritone, so my options are a tad more limited than tenor players, but I'd take a look at the high-end Yanis, although I'd possibly end up with an SX90. I already have a good idea how the YBS-62 feels and plays (I owned a YBS-52; price WAS an object). I'm fairly positive that the Selmer S80 wouldn't be the horn I'd pick, as far as baritones go. They're not overly impressive, to me.
The reason to go modern is detailed at viewtopic.php?f=152&t=292 and in several other places.
> Could you also tell me something about how you found the Yanagisawa T9937 solid silver sax?
I used to do daily eBay/web searching for interesting horns. I also had a few from Kessler Music in one of my calendars.
1. If you want more info on Yani stuff, come on over to the Woodwind Forum. Ed is the acknowledged Yani expert. I just posted the pic because it's a very pretty horn. I didn't bother researching them for saxpics.com because they're not exactly "vintage".
2. I know that some folks (and Yani themselves) call the sterling Yanis "Silver Sonics", but that's only because of the sterling silver, not because the horns have any relation at all to the King Silver-Sonic.
3. The official Yanagisawa page on the T9937 is at http://www.yanagisawasax.co.jp/en/tenor/9937/. See also http://www.kesslermusic.com/html/sax/yaniengraving.htm
4. The Yanagisawa horns have always been copies of a Selmer Mark VI and they've improved on that design over the years, making them some of the nicest pro horns out there. They're also the winners of the most expensive factory-production horns out there, with the approximately $12,000 A992GP alto in pink gold (I can't even find a price for the tenor). They're primarily known for their soprano and sopranino horns, though -- because they have excellent intonation.
5. I'm not overly enamored with the Selmer Mark VI. I think they're extremely good horns, but also extremely overpriced for what they are (if you wanna pay $11,000 for a tenor -- which someone did -- try the Inderbinen, instead, and save a few thousand in the process). And, for bari, I hear that the SBA is better. In other words, asking me to compare something to a 5-digit Mark VI isn't really going to be that helpful for you.
So, if I had to choose between a Yani bari and a Selmer bari, I dunno. I haven't played the high-end Yani baris, so I have nothing to compare against. I'm not overly fond of the S80 bari -- I think the altissimo is overly resistant. I really liked the VI low Bb bari, but I really need a low A. I'd never pick the King S20 baritone (no Silver-Sonic baris) because of the intonation.
FWIW, the best tenor sax evar is very arguably the early SML Gold Medal. Hey, guess who they won that gold medal over way back when? It's a toss-up if these horns compare to any modern pro model -- and, as I said, if you're a pro and you pick out a horn, no one's going to question your choice.
> One other thing, does the New Aristocrat have the Selmer left hand cluster system or the horrible straight across system that is the main blight on Chu Berry Conn 10M saxes?
There's a closeup pic of the G# cluster on the 400 (which is what I think you're really wanting to talk about) at http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/bues ... bues-4.jpg. If you really want a New Aristocrat pic, try http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/bues ... 7apalm.jpg
If there's anything else, please write back.
I've only played two out of the three. I haven't played the Yani T9937.
I own a Buescher 400 TH&C and have a section mate who plays a Silver Sonic Super 20. The short answer is they're both different.
The long answer is that the TH&C has a bigger sound than the Super 20. The Super 20 is brighter. They're both fun to play. I probably liked the Super 20 just a bit more due to the very comfortable keywork and my section mate's horn has full pearls. They're both great horns. I believe the T9937 to be a great horn as well but I just haven't played it.
I own a Buescher 400 TH&C and have a section mate who plays a Silver Sonic Super 20. The short answer is they're both different.
The long answer is that the TH&C has a bigger sound than the Super 20. The Super 20 is brighter. They're both fun to play. I probably liked the Super 20 just a bit more due to the very comfortable keywork and my section mate's horn has full pearls. They're both great horns. I believe the T9937 to be a great horn as well but I just haven't played it.
I don't think the 400 is too much like the Aristocrat that I have. It has a broader tone and there are minor keywork differences. The bore on the 400 is a lot bigger than the Aristocrat. The 400 looks like a large horn due to the large bell and the bell flair.