Springiness in keys--importance and diagnosing?

rleitch

He folks,

I was just reading SideC's description of his old Selmer alto and I noticed that he mentioned that the keywork was "springy" and "responsive." I noticed this in particular because I'm really starting to wonder if the action on my Martin is really too light--i.e not springy and responsive enough--and to think that I may be loosing speed and accuracy in fingering as a result.

I'm wondering if anybody has ever had this problem...and had it fixed?. I've read lots of times about folks getting the action lightened on a sax, but not the reverse?

Also, this is probably unanswerable, but is there a way to diagnose this problem effectively. For example, if your action is too light this will happen or you'll find it hard to do this. In my case, I often find that I get a little tripped up on the first four notes of the Cmajor scale--which is pretty frustrating.

It could also be that the action isn't "tight" enough, but I'm not exactly sure what that means?

cheers,
Rory
 
A lot of the vintage Martins I've played have had weak springs. Moreso than any other make I've played. I dunno why.

I think the diagnosis is essentially, "Does it feel right to you?" It'd be obvious if, when you press a key and the key doesn't spring back, that's a bad/weak spring -- or if a key doesn't open when it's supposed to -- you've got a bad spring, but otherwise I really can't see how one could diagnose the problem of, "Action is too mushy."

I'm not a repairman, but I'd think that there are two ways of fixing "mushy": a) bending the springs a bit more so they're able to "spring back" more or b) replace the springs entirely.

As a holistic approach, it's not just the springs that contribute to the overall feel. You've got felt and cork bumpers, pad thickness (and stickiness), rods and pivots that could be oiled, etc.
 
Hi Rory. How's the snow for you? Do you have power? We're getting another dumping tomorrow... Ah yes, my 8.5 years in the Maritimes is serving me well. Not only do I know how to drive well in the snow, but also really appreciate the rain we normally live with so much more!!!

About the springs on your Martin, the only Martin I've played is the Handcraft that Layne reclaimed from the dead for me in 2000. I don't know for sure if any of the springs on the horn are original, or if he replaced any or all of them. I read with interest what Pete wrote about his experience with weak springs on Martins. My Handcraft has, without a doubt, the stiffest springs of any horn I've ever owned or played. However, that doesn't interfere with my ability to extremely fast passages over the full range of the horn. I was tempted at first to get Layne to lighten the action a bit, but after only a few weeks of using the horn, I got used to it, and realized that I wouldn't have any difficulties with the set up at all. Layne had done a brilliant job. As a matter of fact, if you can believe it, the horn has still not needed to be tweaked since it was restored in 2000 despite all the use it's had in Maritimes; the move across the country, and all the use it's had here.

As far as being able to tell if your springs are a wee bit on the sloppy or weak side, I'd suggest taking it to a tech and getting them to check it over for you. Who are you using a tech these days? Do you have someone you have a good relationship with and trust? Now that Layne is retired, who do the vintage sax players take their horns to in Halifax?

Something you said about playing the C major scale is niggling in my brain... I've found that the D spring is sometimes a culprit when it comes to sloppiness. Sometimes it has too much bounce. Here's a test for you to try: Press only your D key down and release the key quickly by sliding your finger off the side. Does it come up smooth and stay up? Or does it come up and bounce? I've had a number of my students get tripped up on their scales because of sloppy spring action on the D key, that's what me think of this. Give it a try and let me know what you find.

To answer your question: Yes, I've had some springs in my horns that have been too weak that have resulted in leaks. Like Pete said, the fix was either: 1. replacing the offending spring or 2. bending it. But bending a spring is not as easy as it seems, and also, there is a chance the spring might break while being bent.
 
The feel of the keys on a saxophone can be a very personal preference that varies from player to player. That said, various spring tensions tend to work better on different makes and models of saxophones depending on the weight and balance of the keys and the mechanics and geometry of their design. For example some of the older vintage saxes were designed with a closer key opening in mind, resulting in less key travel and less work for the springs to do.

In most cases it is preferable to put more curve or arc into the springs if a "stiffer" feel is desired than to replace the springs with those of a larger diameter. A thicker spring will offer more resistance but it can also give the key a "tubby" feel. Of course on keys that are normally held closed by a spring, sometimes a stiffer spring is required in order to keep the key from opening accidentally and causing a leak.

My concept of the ideal spring tension is to make the spring light enough to feel responsive to the touch, but stiff enough to quickly raise the key without noticeable bounce when it is completely open. Other factors come into play as well that affect the feel of the keys such as friction in the hinge mechanisms and the sponginess of the material used on the key feet and at connecting links. A good tech should be able to achieve a balance among all of these variables to give the player a setup that works and feels right to them.

John
 
Rory, please allow me to elaborate a little on what I was thinking when I said "springy" and "responsive".

Basically, I'm thinking that when I lay or rest my hands on the horn with my fingers in playing position, like if I'm getting ready to play, the keys support the weight of my fingers as they rest on the keys. You know, you can feel that little bit of spring tension that keeps your finger afloat, resting on the key. Then, when you actually go to depress the key, you feel just the right amount of resistance as the key closes, and when it closes, it does so with a nice firm pop. And all of the keys have this same amount of resistance, a feel uniform throughout the entire key mechanism. Same thing goes for releasing the keys, they swing open with a nice fluid motion and just the right amount of help from the spring, and stop against the felt or cork without bouncing or banging or clanging.

If you sight down the horn, all the keys should sit at the same level, none farther open or closed as compared to the rest.

Some horns have a completly different feel to the mechanism when compared to the horn that you may be used to playing. I really don't have any experience with the Martin brand, but I know that within the Selmer family, there are definate differences. A very early mk6 alto I bought used back in '96 seemed to have a very mushy action compared to the horn I was talking about on Al's thread. But I got used to this horn and had no problems after a period of personal adjustment. Heh, sometimes we have to be adjusted, just like the horns.

I also own a mint condition, hardly ever played balanced action alto. The action on this horn is VERY light. It's almost like playing a flute. The horn has no wear to speak of, it was designed to feel light. It took a longer period of adjustment to get used to this baby. But it's second nature to me now.

So, I feel that if you can aclimate yourself, if you can get used to the quirks and challenges of the mechanism of the horn that you're playing now, you'll be alright. But if you feel that something in the mechanism is giving you problems that you can't overcome, find a competent tech who can straighten things out for you.

You don't want to have to fight your horn.
 
Mind you, I don't claim to be the world's expert on all lines of saxophones. I've never played a Couf, or any Martin other than a poor Typewriter, or every Selmer horn to come down the pike. But...

...Being a clarinet player from the get-go, I used to feel that all of the keys on a saxophone looked "sloppy" compared to the regular appearing "action" on the Boehm "system" clarinets of my acquaintance. I was disabused of this somewhat anal notion by both a Selmer factory bulletin and a representative from the Selmer firm.

Both the document (back in about 1971 or so) and the rep pointed out that the saxophone, unlike the clarinet, was designed to be "tuned" through unequal key height. And, both pointed out that the bell keys even had built in adjustment screws (on modern Selmer horns) to allow for this sort of thing.

And, every Selmer horn that I have ever played, if "blessed" with proper intonation, has had varied key heights. Some that had "serious intonation problems" were set up with the uniform key height principle in effect.

It looks a lot better, no question. But expecting a "uniform keyboard" on Selmer horns (and on vintage Conns) is a one way ticket to intonation issues.
 
I agree with John. There are so many things that can affect the action, so if you have a problem the best idea is to go to a (good!) repairer who will be able to find out what is causing the problem and tell you what is possible to do. The problem could be the design of the key or the spring (or both), but many times it could be something completely different, like the the key being too high, using a bad (squishy) cork, sticky dirt making this cork with too much friction, etc.
 
SOTSDO said:
Both the document (back in about 1971 or so) and the rep pointed out that the saxophone, unlike the clarinet, was designed to be "tuned" through unequal key height. And, both pointed out that the bell keys even had built in adjustment screws (on modern Selmer horns) to allow for this sort of thing.

And, every Selmer horn that I have ever played, if "blessed" with proper intonation, has had varied key heights. Some that had "serious intonation problems" were set up with the uniform key height principle in effect.

It looks a lot better, no question. But expecting a "uniform keyboard" on Selmer horns (and on vintage Conns) is a one way ticket to intonation issues.
Click to expand...
Within reason, of course.

If you have a key that's wildly higher than another or wildly lower, something else is wrong.

The horns that I can use as an example of how to adjust key heights would be the Conn 26/30M Connstellation and the SML Gold Medal (the "Mk. 1", at least): they have individual adjustment screws for just about everything
 
Well, I guess that if the key heights on Selmer saxophones are supposed to be set at uneven levels, then the six Selmer horns that I presently own are set up wrong, and I'm playing out of tune!

No, I personally don't agree with this. Key heights move slightly according to the wear on the corks and felts which the keys rest on when open. But aside from that, the heights are uniform on my horns.

And I can assure you that I don't have problems with intonation.
 
I only repeat what I saw (in print) and was told (by the field rep, who may have been (but I no longer recall at this remove) Stan Garber). I don't pretend to know all that there is to know about anything, but the "equal key" height Selmer horns that I had held up as having intonation problems seemed to be at variance with that set of instructions.

I dumped all of my Selmer saxes a long, long time ago, so I've had little experience with the breed over the time since. My Yamaha baritone has some variance in pad height over the "keyboard", but not as much as my Conn alto or the Selmers as I remember them.
 
Terry, I hear what you're saying. But my information on Selmer key heights are based on thousands of hours of time spent playing these horns, eyeballing horns played by the top notch pros that I am privileged to work with, and 4 brand new factory set up altos that I've purchased in my career. 2 mk6's, a serie 2, and the Ref that I'm playing on right now. Plus a brand new mk6 baritone, and a new serie 2 soprano. None of these brand new factory set ups had uneven key heights. So I see a big difference in the info the reps are putting out, and how Selmer Elkhart is actually setting the horns up.

My personal dealings with Stan Garber left me very unimpressed. I have dealt with Jerome Selmer and his tech, Sabastian, at their office at the Rue DE LA Fantaine Au Roi in Paris, and the results were very satisfying. When I was travelling to Paris regularly back in the day, they were very gracious, and invited me to bring my horn in anytime for adjustment, and to just hang and pass the time of day. Good people and very proud of their product. I can't speak much on the quality level of Elkhart.

But I hear what you're saying, and thanks for giving me food for thought!
 
Thanks again everybody!

Hey Helen! I don't know about everybody, but I've gotten all my work done by Marius Kowalski. He's no longer working for Musicstop (AKA Long&McQuade), which is even better. Rob MacIntosh--who used to work for Layne ages ago--has started his own shop in Dartmouth called Mackysax. I know Rob pretty well, but I'm not sure how his business is doing. I gather Layne is still doing work: his Halifax customers are shipping their horns to him out in the woods somewhere?

Micro: I think I'm going to take the plunge and get Maruis to go through the horn and increase the tension a bit. I like the light feel and want to keep that, but I think it may be too light. I'm also going to get him to remove a pesky little dent in my neck that's right under the octave pip and I'm finally going to get him to put a cork left thumbrest over the pearl one: that thing is a killer!

Macro: As much as I love the idea (and occasionally the tone), I'm really starting to doubt the wisdom of playing a vintage horn. I'm not very good, and I don't have a lot of time to practice; I should probably try harder to come to terms with a modern engineered horn.

Rory
 
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