Sticky Bis Key from Hell!

Gandalfe

Gandalfe

Striving to play the changes in a melodic way.
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Any ideas for these friends (player and repair tech) of mine?
Hey Jim, long time no email. I have been slammed, you probably have also. I need help. Your buddy <name> has a cronic sticky bis Bb I can not get rid of. I have put in three new pads and two new springs with max tension as well as obviously cleaning the tone hole.

I play the horn for 15-20 minutes with no problem, he plays it for five and the pad sticks. He is frustrated and I think I have enough time into this horn to make my repad fee about minimum wage! Do you have any other repair buddies you can ask for advice? Maybe he should take to elsewhere, maybe I am missing something.
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This friend is a semi-pro player with great chops. The tech adds.

I forgot to mention the three new pads were three different brands. The horn plays great, even the customer loves the way it plays except for this problem.
 
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Doesn't the Bis-key also move on a seperate rod that goes down to the linkage below the G# pad. Maybe something is wrong with that keyrod or linkage further below, only showing by the way your friend pushes down on that key (slightly different angle when touching, just enough to let a possible rodproblem occur). What happens when playing an A, this also closes the Bis key, does the pad stick aswell.
I'm not a tech, just brainstorming while looking at the keywork.
 
Does it only make the the "kiss" sticky noise or does it stick enough so there is a delay with the key springing back up? Does it imedaitely (5 minutes) starts with the former, and some time later (minutes? hours? day?) gets to the latter?

Possibly the spring is too thin no matter how many times they replace it. Maybe they need to put a slightly thicker spring.

What models of pads have they tried? The kangaroo leather pads are supposed to be especially not sticky (this is possibly because they are slightly more porous), maybe this would help.

There is also one idea that is experimental, one repairer suggested it to me, though neither they or I actually tried it. This is to smear a very thin layer of silicone glue on the pad, then put a very thin layer of teflon powder over the silicone before it is dry. Then wait for it to dry. The purpose is to create a layer of the teflon only, since it is the most unsticky surface, but make sure no silicone glue remains in contact with the tone hole. I hope to try this idea eventually.
 
These questions are difficult without seeing the instrument firsthand. My suggestion would be to remove the upper stack keys and "level" the tonehole with a diamond rotary file if the tech has one. Completely remove the burr on the inside and the outside of the tonehole, then finish the tonehole with a fingernail buffing board that is designed to shine the nail.

Once this is completed, then clean the tonehole with naptha and install and seat a new pad. Once the pad is leveled with just the lightest imprint, then remove the key and with the fingertip rub fine teflon powder into the pores of the pad and reinstall.

If it still sticks after the player plays for a while, it is certainly something that the player is blowing into the sax in his breath with his body chemistry. If that is the case a Roo pad might help (a white one of course :) )

I am adamantly against making springs stiffer when a pad sticks. In my experience that is just putting a band aid on the problem and it can have a detrimental effect on the regulation down the road.
 
jbtsax said:
These questions are difficult without seeing the instrument firsthand.
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I agree so to clarify:

I wasn't suggesting to blindly increase the spring or tension. I considered that maybe the spring was too weak anyway, and this is also the reason the pad is sticking. This is not the same as making the spring stronger than it should be to feel good action just because of the sticking.

Also I agree with John about leveling the tone hole, remove the bur, install the pad, etc. but I assumed (maybe wrongly?) that this was either not necessary or was already done.

I agree the way John described with diamond tone hole files and nail buff, etc. but I think important to emphesize this is just one method and is not necessarily the only superior method. I have the round diamond files but also round metal files, and each has advantage in some ways. The most important is the result.

I also agree that if you try a kangaroo leather pad, try the white ones. I like them better for several reasons ;-) :emoji_relaxed:
 
Make sure the resonator isn't rubbing the inside of the tonehole. It's a smaller than average hole for the size of the pad, and resonators often hit the tonehole.

Also, take off the key, rub a pencil on some [HASHTAG]#400[/HASHTAG] sandpaper to create graphite dust that is finer than the commercial stuff for locks. Rub the dust into the leather of the pad, enough to get into the groove caused by the tonehole. It turns the pad (and your finger) black but it works better than any other powder treatment.
 
JSnola said:
Customer of mine turned me on to Krytox spray.

This has prob been discussed before somewhere, but it's a quick drying lubricant, supposedly not too toxic, that has nonstick properties.

My findings:

Very non-sticky, but tends to cause the finish of my pads to degrade (not necessarily a bad thing, if the Krytox protects -- which it may, since it seems to be moisture repelling -- and heating the pad seems to negate its effectiveness or somehow cause it to either cease to exist or stop working.

I'm going to test it on my own saxes for a while.

I would apply it with a Q-tip or soft (chenille) pipecleaner, after the pad is seated. At worst you will need one new pad in the end if it doesn't work out.

No idea how it will affect lacquer -- effect on pad finish would suggest it will break down lacquer if applied to it wet, to at least some degree -- but should not have any untoward effect on metal, since it's a lubricant.
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I'd luv hear what you find out. Every instrument I have seems to have a different stickin' pad and it is my challenge to figure out what it is and check it regularly.
 
My advice would be to try the contrary of what has been done. Don't smooth the tonehole, don't use a smooth pad. That stuff is so smooth it can't help from sticking!

Use some 180..400 grit sandpaper on the tone hole, to remove any lacquer there. Use the same sandpaper to roughen the leather, or use an old pad, covered with suede. (got some old hushpuppies suede shoes? That'd be perfect)

Don't worry that the pad won't be airtight. The shallow texture of suede is not worse than your fingers on a clarinet hole, and it'd be compressed anyway.

And tell that friend to give up soda drinking before playing. :D
 
I'm curious ... let's go back to the key itself for a minute.
If you have the key and the rod in hand
does the key move (pivot/rotate) freely on the rod ?

and the surrounding keys too.
when put together before putting the springs on, do they move freely

-- checking to make sure the posts are straight and nothing kinked which could "not help" the situation.
 
This thread was for a tech of mine, a fellow who is also a professor of Sax locally. He has an account but has not responded. I know he's looked at the ideas presented. The horn is back in the hands of the owner. Maybe I'll have him look at the thread. Jeff, youse there?
 
tictactux said:
My advice would be to try the contrary of what has been done. Don't smooth the tonehole, don't use a smooth pad. That stuff is so smooth it can't help from sticking!

Use some 180..400 grit sandpaper on the tone hole, to remove any lacquer there. Use the same sandpaper to roughen the leather, or use an old pad, covered with suede. (got some old hushpuppies suede shoes? That'd be perfect)

Don't worry that the pad won't be airtight. The shallow texture of suede is not worse than your fingers on a clarinet hole, and it'd be compressed anyway.

And tell that friend to give up soda drinking before playing. :D
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No offense Tictactux, but this advice goes against what any professional technician would recommend. If sandpaper is used to clean the tonehole it should be no coarser than 1000 grit. If you were to look at a tonehole surface damaged by 180 grit under magnification you could easily see why.

As far as a roughened up leather surface being no more leaky that a finger covering a clarinet tonehole goes, one must take into consideration the size of the clarinet tonehole compared to those on a saxophone. The area that would leak around the circumference of the pad would be much greater on the saxophone pads, not to mention any leakage created that would go into the felt of the pad itself. Such a leak would make the instrument sound tubby and unresponsive---especially in the lower register.

The best advice for any technician professional or amateur I know of is the Hippocratic Oath: First Do No Harm.

John
 
jbtsax said:
No offense Tictactux, but this advice goes against what any professional technician would recommend. If sandpaper is used to clean the tonehole it should be no coarser than 1000 grit. If you were to look at a tonehole surface damaged by 180 grit under magnification you could easily see why.
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No offense taken. I have come to the conclusion that there is a sweet spot between stickiness and airtightness. In my book, a leak must be sufficiently large to make the vibrating air column collapse. If the leak is smaller, the air column will continue to vibrate, probably in a function of the size of the leak present - the smaller, the better.
However, just like the compression of jpeg images, there is a point where ten percent more won't yield in a ten percent better result, but rather in a more than ten percent bigger overhead. (stickiness in our case).

And if a person can go berserk with 180 grit paper, so can this person with 1000 grit paper. On the other hand, a good craftsperson can achieve a silky surface even with a 100 paper. I didn't mean to present absolute figures, my apologies if that came out this way.

All I wanted to say is that every means of preventing stickiness ultimately deals with roughening the surface, whether it is by sanding, or by applying minuscule chemistry bubblets doesn't really matter. Same physics.

jbtsax said:
The best advice for any technician professional or amateur I know of is the Hippocratic Oath: First Do No Harm.
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100% ACK. I too strive for reversible engineering.
 
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Thanks

Hi everyone, and thanks for the input. I am the tech who started this subject with Gandalfe. There have been lots of ideas tossed about, and that is very cool. I have done many repads, between 30-40 per year. This does not make me an expert at all, but I have seen a lot and this one stumped me. I have used Allied PD207 pads for years with great results, until this. There was no binding, tone hole in great condition and clean (I "polished" it to make sure there was no lacquer with a few swipes of 1200 grit), and it wouldn't stick for me...ever. I also tried Hermes pads but those seemed worse. The owner will not talk to me now so I don't have an update unfortunately. He told me the horn plays great except this one pad.
 
....oh yea...I think I would have noticed if the resonator rubbed the tone hole, but maybe that snuck by me??? But..it wouldn't stick for me. Anyway, maybe I will start a new discausion about pads. I have since tried MANY pad brands and have decided I like Precision Pads and Roo Pads and will stock Precision Pads and install Roo Pads on request. I have had no other complaints about sticking pads, all my customers like the Precision Pads.

Could it have been a "bad batch" of pads that I got???

This has been great...I am new here and still checking things out. I love colaberation, so thanks for your input.

Matt
 
I like the powdered PTFE (teflon) after seating, as John does, however, I apply first a light coat of a water-based acrylic leather treatment (Eco-Flow Super Sheen, from Tandy Leather) and then rub the PTFE into that while damp. That makes the leather water-proof and non-stick, and you don't have to re-apply the PTFE ever.
 
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