Taragotok sound file--Stowasser and Remenyi

kymarto

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As threatened/promised, I have finally made a little mp3 demo of my new toys. It's just me noodling around on the two tarogatok, but it demonstrates the intonation or lack thereof of the two horns.

Altogether it runs about 2'40". It is in three parts. The first, longest part (1'20') is the Stowasser with the Stowasser mpc. Next is a shorter section of the Stowasser with the Ioan Scaunas mpc. You can hear the difference that the mpc makes--what changes in the sound and what doesn't. Finally there is a short (40") section of the same kind of thing played on the Remenyi. The difference in sound is interesting. I can't actually say that the Remenyi is of lesser quality than the Stowasser. Not quite as well in tune overall, and nowhere near as forward, but it has a really nice, intimate, delicate sound.

Hope it is enjoyable, or at least educational...

Toby
 
Very enlightening. I like your concept of sound---especially in the upper register. The differences I hear in the recordings with the different instruments and mouthpieces is really quite subtle.

My preference would be the Stowasser with the Stowasser mp, but they all sounded very good to my ears. Which mouthpiece was used playing the Remenyi?
 
All sounded sublime to me. The Stowasser was was sweeter while the Remenyl was harsher and maybe a bit louder. Both instruments sounded like keepers. How hard was it to keep the Remenyl in tune. That's the part that would be telling to me.
 
Playing 7/8 time is not hard at all. You just count one, two, three, four, five, six, sev-en.
 
Thanks for the nice comments on my poor playing. If there was any meter involved I'm unaware of it--I just had a drone going in the background for reference and played some short phrases. I'm still really struggling with the fingerings, and those huge ring keys on the bottom holes are tricky, so I took everything really slow.

The Remenyi actually feels softer and more "closed" when playing. The second register is really lovely, but below G1 things get tough. I thought it might be a leak, but the worst note is E1, which wants to break up an octave when you go soft, except with a really loose embouchure. D1 is also a bit squirrely--doesn't want to speak at first, but it plays fine once it gets going. No problems in the notes below that. I have gone so far as to seal every tonehole with a pad in case I missed something, but it is the same. I guess it is a bore issue. It's not fatal, but it takes some care in the lower notes. If you play loud and brassy in typical tárogató style no problem at all.

The Remenyi is a single octave key, which means that it already starts getting a bit hissy on E2, Eb2 wants to go sharp, and D2 is useless with the key. What works well, and apparently is the recommended fingering even with 2 octave key systems, is to halfhole LH1, in which case Eb is a tiny bit flat, and D is great. The limit with octave key alone is Bb3, but I've found some great altissimo-type fingerings up to D, with intonation really locked in. But they are awkward, and will take some practice to get them under my fingers.

In the first register, the Remenyi is pretty loose and free in the shortest tube notes, especially C2. Slight embouchure changes will send it flying, so I have to be aware to keep my embouchure in the right place. If I am a bit pinched it won't affect the upper register so much, but as soon as I hit C2 I know that I am off the track.

But that all said and done, it is not as bad as many old sopranos that I have played, even good ones, and I really love the sound.

The Stowasser is surprisingly good and stable from top to bottom. The four ring system has larger holes in the top joint, lower down, so the pitch is more stable in the short tube notes, at the expense of a certain delicacy I find in the Remenyi. What drives me nuts is the double octave key--I keep forgetting to move to the second one on the higher notes and then I am screwed when I reach for anything above A. But it will play up to C3 pretty well with normal fingerings when I get it right, and I'm not fumbling for those altissimo fingerings. It has to be said, though, that the altissimos, since they are overblows of long tube notes basically, are more stable.

The two horns do not have interchangeable mpcs, since the Stowasser is sax style and the Remenyi is clarinet style. The Remenyi has its own mpc. All those sound samples were played with the same reed. I did some refacing work to get them all around .75. The Stowasser and the Gerber for the Remenyi must have been around .55 when I started.

Lance, you might be interested in my experiences with the Stowasser mpc. It is clarinet style, with the tenon, and thus the beginning of the cone, on the mpc itself. Even with the tip opened it was weak and honky sounding. I compared it to the Scaunas, which was custom made by the tárogató player and mpc wizard from whom I bought the horn. Much bigger throat, like 20% bigger. Figuring I had nothing to lose, since the Stowasser had been deemed unplayable by him, I opened the throat way up and voila--much bigger sound, much easier blowing: something to work with. It did seem, however, to raise the playing pitch about 20 cents pretty much across the board. Sorry I did not take more methodical notes. Pulling out on the cork worked OK, but then the A2 started to get balky. But putting a thin reducing disk at the end of the throat with an opening about 90% that of the throat brought everything together beautifully, I can keep it partway off the cork for 440, allowing me to tune up to 444 if necessary, and the A is good. Funny stuff. I think that some things need to be explored vis-a-vis small adjustments at the end of the cone truncation--big changes can be had there.

For the techies: the two horns have quite different bores. The Remenyi starts life at 10mm at the top, and has a semi-angle of about 6.5 degrees. The Stowasser is smaller at the top: 9.5mm, but expands much more quickly: cone semi-angle of 8 degrees. Those are pretty big differences, and they do play differently, but they both sound like tárogatós...
 
Lance, you might be interested in my experiences with the Stowasser mpc. It is clarinet style, with the tenon, and thus the beginning of the cone, on the mpc itself.

Not hard to figure... tárogató or soprano, you still have a mouthpiece volume/frequency requirement, outside of which the thing won't work well, if at all.
 
Nice. Aren't you supposed to be playing in odd meter time though - 11/4, 13/8, etc.?


I do hear some semblance of what one might be inclined to call very rubato odd meter phrasing on a very soothing version of "Lopsided Lullaby's Lament", but indubidably, what real tárogató listeners want to hear is something a bit more snappy and strictly metered - something that snakes can get up and writh-dance to.
 
As threatened/promised, I have finally made a little mp3 demo of my new toys. It's just me noodling around on the two tarogatok, but it demonstrates the intonation or lack thereof of the two horns.

Altogether it runs about 2'40". It is in three parts. The first, longest part (1'20') is the Stowasser with the Stowasser mpc. Next is a shorter section of the Stowasser with the Ioan Scaunas mpc. You can hear the difference that the mpc makes--what changes in the sound and what doesn't. Finally there is a short (40") section of the same kind of thing played on the Remenyi. The difference in sound is interesting. I can't actually say that the Remenyi is of lesser quality than the Stowasser. Not quite as well in tune overall, and nowhere near as forward, but it has a really nice, intimate, delicate sound.

Hope it is enjoyable, or at least educational...

Toby

Thanks for posting this Toby, it is indeed educational. My preference is the middle part, the Stowasser with Scaunas mpc, hands down.

One question: the long note you hold at the end of that part (starting at 2:03s time), that is supposed to be A#, correct? It shows as exactly that on my tuner, and I was playing along on my own taragot for comparison. What is your fingering on that? Do you use the right index finger "knuckle" side key (the one higher up)? Or a different fingering entirely? I can play that A fairly easily now, but as soon as I use that key to go to A#, it breaks back to the lower octave.

George
 
I do hear some semblance of what one might be inclined to call very rubato odd meter phrasing on a very soothing version of "Lopsided Lullaby's Lament", but indubidably, what real tárogató listeners want to hear is something a bit more snappy and strictly metered - something that snakes can get up and writh-dance to.
Well... I'm not going to over-explain my joke! :)

"Real tárogató listeners" are not one homogeneous "thing"... so "they" might want to listen to all sorts of different things, or maybe even be open to whatever anyone is going to play with a tárogató, even if they are not familiar with the type of music at all.

BTW I've played with a Balkan/Eastern European music group and although we had no tárogatós, we had most pieces in 7/8, 11/8, 13/ 8, etc. though we did play some 2/4 pieces too :)
 
Well, I too thank Toby for his very interesting and informative audio posting, and look forward to many more.

Thanks to all for your gentleness. I am hoping to get some technique and then I can really try to play something "snappy", although that is not my preferred style...you ain't gonna catch me trying to double tongue those Romanian marches...

Gheorghe, on the Stowasser it is indeed possible to play the high written C (sounding Bb) using the standard fingering of second octave key, LH 1 plus upper side (knuckle) key for the RH, however using a harmonic fingering is more secure, if awkward.

Try this: left hand 1 and 2 on holes 1 and 2, left hand finger 3 presses the Bb key between holes 2 and 3. Left hand pinky presses the low B key (written B, not sounded--the lowest note except for the bell Bb key). That B key is important--nothing will work without it! Press also the upper octave key

Right hand 1, 2 and 3 cover the holes, and at the same time press the side Bb lever (the lower of the two side keys). You might find pinky on the C key helps stabilize it. If it is a bit flat you can add the Eb key (those are the two RH pinky keys).

There is a little bit of a trick to the embouchure, and I don't know how to describe it: you need to move up slightly on the mpc, relax, and open the back of your throat. This is like playing altissimo notes on the sax--you need to help the note sound by "tuning" your throat and mouth cavity. It takes practice--or maybe it will just work for you.

There is a high B natural (written--half step below the above) harmonic fingering: the exact same as the one above but NO fingers down in the right hand.

And to stabilize high Bb written, try adding the low B key to the normal fingering. It can even help to stabilize the A, but it makes it a bit sharp (at least on both my horns).

And before you go crazy twisting your fingers into spaghetti for the high C (or what you are calling A# (or Bb) written)--try the standard fingering adding the low B key. Fiddle around a bit with the standard fingering opening or closing different keys and holes and combinations thereof--you may find that closing one hole somewhere or opening or closing one key somewhere--anywhere--will make the note speak more easily, or bring it into better tune.

If that is just completely confusing I can draw you a fingering chart.

Toby
 
Thanks to all for your gentleness. I am hoping to get some technique and then I can really try to play something "snappy", although that is not my preferred style...you ain't gonna catch me trying to double tongue those Romanian marches...

Gheorghe, on the Stowasser it is indeed possible to play the high written C (sounding Bb) using the standard fingering of second octave key, LH 1 plus upper side (knuckle) key for the RH, however using a harmonic fingering is more secure, if awkward.

Try this: left hand 1 and 2 on holes 1 and 2, left hand finger 3 presses the Bb key between holes 2 and 3. Left hand pinky presses the low B key (written B, not sounded--the lowest note except for the bell Bb key). That B key is important--nothing will work without it! Press also the upper octave key

Right hand 1, 2 and 3 cover the holes, and at the same time press the side Bb lever (the lower of the two side keys). You might find pinky on the C key helps stabilize it. If it is a bit flat you can add the Eb key (those are the two RH pinky keys).

There is a little bit of a trick to the embouchure, and I don't know how to describe it: you need to move up slightly on the mpc, relax, and open the back of your throat. This is like playing altissimo notes on the sax--you need to help the note sound by "tuning" your throat and mouth cavity. It takes practice--or maybe it will just work for you.

There is a high B natural (written--half step below the above) harmonic fingering: the exact same as the one above but NO fingers down in the right hand.

And to stabilize high Bb written, try adding the low B key to the normal fingering. It can even help to stabilize the A, but it makes it a bit sharp (at least on both my horns).

And before you go crazy twisting your fingers into spaghetti for the high C (or what you are calling A# (or Bb) written)--try the standard fingering adding the low B key. Fiddle around a bit with the standard fingering opening or closing different keys and holes and combinations thereof--you may find that closing one hole somewhere or opening or closing one key somewhere--anywhere--will make the note speak more easily, or bring it into better tune.

If that is just completely confusing I can draw you a fingering chart.

Toby

Thanks Toby, once again this is very helpful info. I will experiment. Just strictly out of curiosity: Did you mention before that you are able to get even higher than that Bb you just described??

George
 
Here is a fingering for a solid C# (written, B natural sounded). A simple variant on the semitone below--RH remains the same (three fingers down, possibly either of the two pinky keys for small pitch/quality adjustments) LH index finger only, add pinky low B (written, A sounded). Octave key as well.

The old Romanian instrument that John now has had a lovely semitone above that, but I have yet to find a good fingering on the Stowasser--haven't really tried yet. On the Reményi there is a solid D (C sounded), but it is a bit more difficult than the other notes to get it to speak. It is also a bit awkward. LH 1, octave and low B key as before. RH 2, plus upper knuckle side key. Or RH 12 plus upper side key, but that is pretzelville. With all these harmonic fingerings (and normal fingerings too) you can experiment with adding or subtracting--one or both Bb keys, G# key, and try closing hes further down the tube. All these instruments respond differently, depending on bore and hole size/layout.

HTH
 
@Lance--yeah, I finally got the odd meter thing, though I usually associate that with Bulgarian music. I have enough trouble with normal meters, never mind 21/8 with one measure in 17/8 thrown in every five bars...

Of course the volume/resonance requirements remain the same for tárogató, but what I realized working on these mpcs is that a thin diameter restriction at the end of the throat is a powerful way to lower resonance frequency of the substitution with very little change in volume. Think about how quickly the sounding frequency of a blown bottle drops when you narrow the end. The downside is that if you do it much you weaken the sound, and the same appears to be true of a mpc. The Stowasser mpc had a very narrow throat at first, and was resistant, weak and honky. The power of the Scaunas mpc has a lot to do with the very wide throat, it appears.

The throat of a tárogató mpc is more or less analogous to the end of a sax neck, so it's hard to directly apply this, but I had good results putting a very thin diameter reducing disk at the back of the mpc throat. You might find it interesting to experiment with such a device. A small diameter reduction--to slightly less than that of the throat should not adversely impact blowing characteristics (and might even add a pleasing touch of resistance. It might add to your arsenal of adjustments for balancing mpcs. With your methodical and meticulous nature coupled with your sensitivity and technical abilities, you might be able to turn this into something.

I don't know, maybe you've already been there, but I thought it worth mentioning.
 
Toby, I thought your tone on both tárogatós was really excellent. I liked listening to it a lot. OTOH I liked some of Brotzmann's playing too.

@Lance--yeah, I finally got the odd meter thing, though I usually associate that with Bulgarian music. I have enough trouble with normal meters, never mind 21/8 with one measure in 17/8 thrown in every five bars...
Not just Bulgarian. There is music like this from many countries in East (and also not-so-East) Europe. Or not europe at all. But here is one example (with a clarinet) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h8PoUyL-hk
 
Toby, I thought your tone on both tárogatós was really excellent. I liked listening to it a lot. OTOH I liked some of Brotzmann's playing too.


Not just Bulgarian. There is music like this from many countries in East (and also not-so-East) Europe. Or not europe at all. But here is one example (with a clarinet) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h8PoUyL-hk

Thanks Nitai,

I'm nowhere near where I would like to be, but I am having a lot of fun, which is important for us non-professionals :)
 
Here is a fingering for a solid C# (written, B natural sounded). A simple variant on the semitone below--RH remains the same (three fingers down, possibly either of the two pinky keys for small pitch/quality adjustments) LH index finger only, add pinky low B (written, A sounded). Octave key as well.

The old Romanian instrument that John now has had a lovely semitone above that, but I have yet to find a good fingering on the Stowasser--haven't really tried yet. On the Reményi there is a solid D (C sounded), but it is a bit more difficult than the other notes to get it to speak. It is also a bit awkward. LH 1, octave and low B key as before. RH 2, plus upper knuckle side key. Or RH 12 plus upper side key, but that is pretzelville. With all these harmonic fingerings (and normal fingerings too) you can experiment with adding or subtracting--one or both Bb keys, G# key, and try closing hes further down the tube. All these instruments respond differently, depending on bore and hole size/layout.

HTH

Thanks Toby, I feel much better now. The high A (written B) is about as high as I'd ever need to go, and that is starting to come in nicely.

On the other end, I never hear the bottom note (written Bb - the right thumb key) being used in any Hungarian or Romanian music. And by "never" I mean never. Mine happens to be quite nice and clean, but tough to grab quickly. But I do use that low B (written) a lot.

George
 
I like the Remenyi tone way better actually. They're both very pleasant - thanks for sharing.

As different as the two instruments are as you described them, they are also just as different in tone.

I still blame the bore. ;)

I like your analysis of the mouthpiece throats as I too have observed the same. It's really just common sense and logic but a little of both goes a long way - the modification is not hard to nail either. About 8 years ago when I was first studying tarogatok I tried so many different mouthpieces and compared the statistical data like a government biologist, and found one thing to be true though - there is no such thing as a mouthpiece that does everything you want on every instrument you want. I have drawers full of them in different volumes, woods, throat opening differences, baffle mods, etc, all hand made. It's a real art.
 
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