Tuning in an ensemble

[Groovekiller]

I'm going to post this here first because this is a relatively friendly forum and I don't want to ruffle any feathers.

People obsess about tuning, but it all boils down to one thing - Get the ensemble in tune with itself. Nothing else matters. there are several points to consider:

1. Yes, get as close to A=440 as possible. That is the pitch to which most (but not all) instruments are made, but that is far from the whole story.

2. The pitch of an ensemble "floats" because of temperature, loudness, relative location of each note (I mean REALLY high or REALLY low), and to a certain extent, the ability of the players.

3. Many amateur players suffer from what I call "practice room chops." They sound terrific when playing alone in a 6' X 8' studio, but they shouldn't be allowed onstage in real life. Perhaps that's harsh, but there is a cure.

4. For all wind instruments except flute, the louder you play, the flatter you get. This may be the most important point to consider.

There is probably more I could say, but let's keep it simple:

First of all, in today's music, unless you are playing in a Renaissance folk music group, onstage volume will be loud. I'm not endorsing this situation, I'm just stating facts. It doesn't have to be this way, but it is. Even the symphonic pops gigs I play are screaming loud, by let's say, 1930 standards. Everything has changed - mouthpieces (for brass and woodwinds), horns, even strings and amplification in the symphony orchestra. The player has to be able to play up to the volume level of the ensemble. Even oboe, clarinet, and bassoon players have to adapt, and the best of them have done so.

In the symphony orchestra, brass has traditionally played with a dark, beautiful tone, and not as loud as jazz players. Gradually, the legit cats have crept up in volume and brightness, setting the volume bar higher and higher for the other orchestra members.

In the popular music arena, all hell has broken loose. Power, range, and edge has gone to extremes. I'm not criticising. I'm simply stating facts. It's exciting, and that's OK. Just don't try to play like you are in concert band.

So what is a horn player to do? See items 3 and 4 above. Tune up a tad sharp and be prepared to blow the turds out of your horn. Yes, there is a chance that you will be above the pitch. Use your ears, and place the note where it should be, while playing at triple FFF. Pitch is YOUR job, not the task of the horn. No, it ain't easy, but that's how the big boys do it. Play loose,. and take the biggest breath in the world, every time, even when you occasionally play softly.

Once you get the hang of putting an immense amount of air through the horn and playing with a loose embouchure (clarinet players have to meet me halfway here) , remember to open your ears and be sure you are in tune. Remember, it's your job to get in tune with the ensemble, not the responsibility of the instrument.

If you only skimmed this post, remember:
1. Take the biggest breath in the world
2. Tune up a tad sharp and play loose to get down to the pitch
3. A=440 is not in tune. The pitch of the ensemble is in tune

OK, folks, have at me. I don't mind taking criticism.

 

[Mojo]

Feel better?

The most in tune ensembles I play in do not play a tuning note except for show at the beginning of a concert.

We do sometimes use tuners to fix bad spots during rehearsal that are not improving with repetition. Some players can be stubborn. Sometimes the player who is out of tune with the chord is the one on pitch with the tuner. I guess it is OK to try to fix this but when it comes closer to performance time it is much more musical to adjust to fit in rather than watch the tuner. As you say, the tuning floats.

On bass clarinet, low E is flat when the rest of the notes are basically in tune. Once we had a combined concert where we had 6 bass clarinets entering on a low E that they wanted in tune with other low instruments. It was a bit of a mess since we ended up tuning to the bad note and then needed to readjust for the rest of the concert. But some did and some did not. Stuff happens.

 

[tictactux]

You forgot one (important) point in the management summary: LISTEN.

I think this ist the most important thing to know:
You're always on the verge of being out of tune re the rest of the group. Don't blame your instrument. Blame your ears, and yourself, for not being attentive enough to adapt, and to know when to adapt. No one hears a slightly out-of-tune pp tremolo while the rest is blaring full blast. But when accompanying a soloist, it's your job as an accompanyist (and no one else's) to adapt your tuning, however off it may be on your tuner. (this doesn't free the soloist from trying their best to keep a manageable tuning, but it's beside the point).

A lot of what has been said in above posts not only is valid for tuning, but for dynamics and tempo as well.

 

[jbtsax]

I'm going to address the "amateur players" who are not to be allowed on stage to play in your professional ensembles. The tuning skills they apparently lack can be learned, and if they can be learned they can be taught. Many of the intonation problems experienced by developing players have to do with breath support and tone production. That is where to start. Next comes the ability to "humor" the pitch of any note in any register. What follows that skill is matching pitch in unisons and octaves which is where the listening comes in. Most wind ensembles tune from the bottom up so players need to be taught where to focus their listening. Players also need to be familiar with the problem notes of their chosen instrument and ways to correct those pitches including alternate fingerings. Last but not least is developing musicians need to be introduced to the tuning of the 3rds in major and minor chords and well as the tuning of 7ths in dominant 7th chords. It seems a tall order, but under the guidance of a skilled teacher these "amateurs" can be brought up to the level of the rest of a good ensemble. Perhaps the best vehicle to practice these skills is playing in small ensembles---duets, trios, and quartets to name a few. This is one area in which I believe more can be done in our public school music programs.

 

[pete]

You forgot one (important) point in the management summary: LISTEN.

I'll go two directions with this.

First, I would have loved more any ear training when I was beginning. Not just the intervals between notes, but things sounding in tune with other things. Yes, long tones with a tuner helps, but when you're in an ensemble, I want to know if I'm flat or sharp in comparison to the rest of the group. I know I struggled with learning that.

Second, I've had students that went through Suzuki-style training and they can match the sound to a fingering, but they're woefully inadequate when I show them, say, .

A happy medium of the two would be good.

 

[Chris J]

Being in tune (having instruments maximally tuned to each other) is a fairly basic requirement of ensemble playing.

My ears are not the best. If someone next to me tells me I am out of tune, I am very grateful. It is not an insult.

If I thought someone was out of tune and not noticing, I would say so to them.

Groups should be encouraged to tell their neighbour if it is thought they are out of tuning line.

Chris

 

[Mojo]

Many adult players in community ensembles plateau at their high school playing level. They do not recognize they have a (tuning) problem and/or there is a solution to it they can work on. They tune up on concert Bb and have no idea why their other notes are not in tune. Or they assume they are and it is the other players' problem.

 

[Gandalfe]

When I returned to public performance, after a ~30 break from music, I spent ~10 years taking lessons, sometimes two times a week, trying to improve my intonation (and sight reading skillz). I have little respect for a musician who sez they can't tune themselves during a performance. And yes, I've heard that. Since I play mostly with hobbyists, I have had way too many young people sit in with a gonzo (9+ opening) mouthpiece who couldn't play in tune if their lives depended upon it. I hand them a C* and force them to finish the practice on that, which seems to help a lot. It takes some serious chops to play some mouthpieces.

Interestingly enough, I had a lovely bari sax line behind a fine vocalist (Maybe This Time) that was blown out of the water because the bass guy missed the key signature (again) and just kept playing. I thought it was me and couldn't get soft enough as I sounded out of tune. My long-time music teacher was subbing on lead alto and he knew exactly what was happening. I called the bass player on it and he apologized, but I still am furious that he ruined the intro to the song for 4+ measures because of that.

 

[pete]

Playing the wrong key signature and/or the rhythm section playing the wrong tempo is a different discussion, of course, but I can roll with that, too.

I've been in a couple groups where the director has stopped the piece and re-started after casting evil looks at bass players. I attempted to do that with a bass player in a group I directed. Unfortunately, his eyes were glued to the music and he didn't see me trying really hard to mime various versions of "cut." I didn't generally use a baton when I directed, so I didn't have anything to throw at him -- and he was too far away from me to reach.

FWIW, I don't have the world's best sense of rhythm, so I like to have a consistent beat from my rhythm section. As much as I didn't like playing uninteresting bass lines on bari sax, I can understand why they weren't that interesting.

 

[Groovekiller]

Believe me, I have been in the same predicament, and furious. The best way to deal with it is to get ready for the next gig. Concentrate on leaving efficiently and diplomatically.

 

[fromsfca]

Tictactux nailed it: the biggest difference between professionals and amateurs is listening. I play reed 1 in a pit with a gal who is a good flute/picc player, and awful on clarinet. Before the show she dutifully tunes to the piano....(I don't)....10 minutes later, after the horns have sat for 10 minutes and gotten cold she starts playing (flat) and STOPS listening (staying flat). I don't tune; I know where my horns are at, relatively, and blow warm air through them for a minute or two before we have to play. If I'm playing with the lead trumpet, I get pitch from him/her...if I'm leading the section at first desk, I tune to the bass (electric piano tone is too spread).,...and when the reeds are in ensemble, I have to drop my pitch to match the 2nd player...who isn't listening!!!! The days she doesn't come, the reed section is in tune, because we listen to each other.

Pitch is constantly changing...listen to the lead player and match them...being in tune and "everyone else" is out of tune...doesn't work. Tuning to the oboe player before the gig doesn't mean you are in tune...it means you are in tune at that moment.