What is the closes thing I can get that gives off this nice sound?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9SR0wf9Nf4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9SR0wf9Nf4&NR=1
What mouthpiece sounds close to this?
- Thread starter Jrock
- Start date
What a great film noir sound; it's dark, luscious, and warm. I luv it and am listening to it again for the third time.
It's not the mouthpiece. I know it sounds curt, but there is so much more than the mouthpiece that contributes to the sound of this saxophone. I wish there was a magic mouthpiece that would make us all sound this good, but then everyone would be playing sax no. What does your saxophone instructor say?
It's not the mouthpiece. I know it sounds curt, but there is so much more than the mouthpiece that contributes to the sound of this saxophone. I wish there was a magic mouthpiece that would make us all sound this good, but then everyone would be playing sax no. What does your saxophone instructor say?
The artist in that recording is Tom Scott who plays on a Jody Jazz DV 8 on alto.
The way to someday achieve close to that sound on alto is to buy several of Tom Scott's recordings and listen to them repeatedly to develop that concept of tone. Once the tonal concept has been internalized THEN the student will be able to approach getting that sound with lots and lots of practice and playing along with Tom's recordings.
As the player gets better and better at controlling and molding the sound with the embouchure and by "voicing" the notes with the oral cavity and throat THEN would be the appropriate time to start looking for a mouthpiece that will help facilitate the production of that particular sound.
The mouthpiece NEVER produces a particular sound on its own, it is simply a tool that players can use to produce the concept of sound that the performer brings to it. Most of us have learned the hard (and expensive) way that without changing one's "concept" first, that after two weeks playing on the new mouthpiece you end up sounding just like you have always sounded.
Some setups are more efficient and let the player achieve the desired concept of sound with less effort on his/her part, and some are less efficient making the player work harder to get the same result. Finding the most efficient set up can allow the musician to focus less on the tone production and more on the music itself, but a great player can get just about any sound on any equipment as long as they have the concept.
Don Menza demonstrates this beautifully in this video:
http://www.cannonballmusic.com/don1.php
The way to someday achieve close to that sound on alto is to buy several of Tom Scott's recordings and listen to them repeatedly to develop that concept of tone. Once the tonal concept has been internalized THEN the student will be able to approach getting that sound with lots and lots of practice and playing along with Tom's recordings.
As the player gets better and better at controlling and molding the sound with the embouchure and by "voicing" the notes with the oral cavity and throat THEN would be the appropriate time to start looking for a mouthpiece that will help facilitate the production of that particular sound.
The mouthpiece NEVER produces a particular sound on its own, it is simply a tool that players can use to produce the concept of sound that the performer brings to it. Most of us have learned the hard (and expensive) way that without changing one's "concept" first, that after two weeks playing on the new mouthpiece you end up sounding just like you have always sounded.
Some setups are more efficient and let the player achieve the desired concept of sound with less effort on his/her part, and some are less efficient making the player work harder to get the same result. Finding the most efficient set up can allow the musician to focus less on the tone production and more on the music itself, but a great player can get just about any sound on any equipment as long as they have the concept.
Don Menza demonstrates this beautifully in this video:
http://www.cannonballmusic.com/don1.php
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thanks, great video btw. The thing is that I have a real low brand mouthpiece and was just curious if I should upgrade. I want to stick with my #2 reed for now but would like to upgrade my mouthpiece. All I heard was meyer brand and to get 5m from a few forums.
Oh and by the way does anyone know some musicians that play those dark mystery detective songs? just like tom scott perform on this piece? I want to get some good songs and pick up on them.
here is another one I caught on youtube and surprise it was on spongebob haha but its very catchy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZlLMyU6yuw&feature=related
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Back then I think Tom was playing a VI alto. It sounds a bit like a Meyer and a VI to me. A rather magical combination in the right hands.
When it comes to Meyer mouthpiece how does sizes play a roll? is the higher # a harder piece to play/ but gives a better tone?
just a bigger tip opening. Hard IMHO to play softer, but easier to play louder. Some people don't have this problem. I play a lot of clarinet and as such hate big tip openings. I played a "normal" setup on tenor and alto with a Link STM 7* on tenor and a Meyer 5m on alto for ever. My bari tips are really small for the big band scene at 110, and I get a bigger sound than most players, or so my directors tell me.
I've recently changed to a Selmer Metal Classic E on alto, which is a Meyer 7m. The current 7m is about the same size as the old school 5m's. Love the new Selmer piece though, gets me the sound I want as easy as possible. I sound the same on a Meyer 5m, 6m, 7m, Selmer C*, S90, Metal Classic D and E. There are minor variations in a recording of all of them, but I attribute that mainly to the tip openings. I still sound like me. The Selmer E played real easy and felt better to me. I love metal mouthpieces on sax, I think it's more the smaller profile feels more like a clarinet, who knows. I now use metal on all of my setups except classical tenor.
Not saying you should go that route, especially if you're in high school. Band directors tend to get b*tchy when you show up with metal mouthpieces... When I get called for master classes I don't bring any rubber mouthpieces for that reason, also use Rico reeds exclusively, so that ticks em off even more. I'm a great guy aren't I?
moral of story. If you have a junk mouthpiece, something like a Meyer will change your sound drastically. You'll still basically sound like you, but you're playing should change dramatically because your mouthpiece will be working for you not against you. If you want a Meyer, I recommend getting not a Meyer... They suck. Quality control is crap and unless you have an experience sax playin buddy with you and can play a bunch of em, don't buy one.
http://kesslermusic.com/html/mps/altomps.htm
these are good
http://www.phil-tone.com/link.html
These are good as well
can't go wrong with either of those
http://www.wwbw.com/Meyer-Hard-Rubber-Alto-Saxophone-Mouthpiece-472750-i1418045.wwbw
and junk...
but either way, it's a significant upcharge, but still cheap as far as mouthpieces go. My Metal Classic's were $300 each, my slant sig was about that *dirt cheap for that one though...* and my bari was something like that. Have a bunch of others, but $180 for the Phil Tone and $130 for the Kessler is cheap.
http://mojomouthpiecework.com/ForSale/tabid/62/AlbumID/388-195/Default.aspx
That's another option. Mojo does GREAT work and has refaced a couple of my mouthpieces. Highly recommend him and his work. Cool guy, even though he's a Rutgers fan...
oh and edit.
Bigger tips don't give you a better tone. you give you a better tone. Crappy tips make you sound bad, good tips make you sound good. Hence refaced mouthpieces vs. stock meyers. Flat tables also help since the reeds aren't rocking funny. That being said, thicker reeds make you sound better. I'll get slammed for this, but you can't tell me that a Rico Orange box 2 will ever sound as good as a 3 or a 4... It's too thin and whispy sounding I guess is the word...Real thin and prone to irritating stuff. Really high to get a full rich tone in the high registers too. One of the other reasons why I like the smaller tips, allows you to use the stiffer reeds so more volume and pitch control with better timbre in the high registers
I've recently changed to a Selmer Metal Classic E on alto, which is a Meyer 7m. The current 7m is about the same size as the old school 5m's. Love the new Selmer piece though, gets me the sound I want as easy as possible. I sound the same on a Meyer 5m, 6m, 7m, Selmer C*, S90, Metal Classic D and E. There are minor variations in a recording of all of them, but I attribute that mainly to the tip openings. I still sound like me. The Selmer E played real easy and felt better to me. I love metal mouthpieces on sax, I think it's more the smaller profile feels more like a clarinet, who knows. I now use metal on all of my setups except classical tenor.
Not saying you should go that route, especially if you're in high school. Band directors tend to get b*tchy when you show up with metal mouthpieces... When I get called for master classes I don't bring any rubber mouthpieces for that reason, also use Rico reeds exclusively, so that ticks em off even more. I'm a great guy aren't I?
moral of story. If you have a junk mouthpiece, something like a Meyer will change your sound drastically. You'll still basically sound like you, but you're playing should change dramatically because your mouthpiece will be working for you not against you. If you want a Meyer, I recommend getting not a Meyer... They suck. Quality control is crap and unless you have an experience sax playin buddy with you and can play a bunch of em, don't buy one.
http://kesslermusic.com/html/mps/altomps.htm
these are good
http://www.phil-tone.com/link.html
These are good as well
can't go wrong with either of those
http://www.wwbw.com/Meyer-Hard-Rubber-Alto-Saxophone-Mouthpiece-472750-i1418045.wwbw
and junk...
but either way, it's a significant upcharge, but still cheap as far as mouthpieces go. My Metal Classic's were $300 each, my slant sig was about that *dirt cheap for that one though...* and my bari was something like that. Have a bunch of others, but $180 for the Phil Tone and $130 for the Kessler is cheap.
http://mojomouthpiecework.com/ForSale/tabid/62/AlbumID/388-195/Default.aspx
That's another option. Mojo does GREAT work and has refaced a couple of my mouthpieces. Highly recommend him and his work. Cool guy, even though he's a Rutgers fan...
oh and edit.
Bigger tips don't give you a better tone. you give you a better tone. Crappy tips make you sound bad, good tips make you sound good. Hence refaced mouthpieces vs. stock meyers. Flat tables also help since the reeds aren't rocking funny. That being said, thicker reeds make you sound better. I'll get slammed for this, but you can't tell me that a Rico Orange box 2 will ever sound as good as a 3 or a 4... It's too thin and whispy sounding I guess is the word...Real thin and prone to irritating stuff. Really high to get a full rich tone in the high registers too. One of the other reasons why I like the smaller tips, allows you to use the stiffer reeds so more volume and pitch control with better timbre in the high registers
Well I won't slam you for this Tom, but I am certainly going to challenge that belief. With proper control of one's oral and throat cavities, a player can play a 1.5 or 2 reed and have it sound rich and full. There are lots of pros among the studio set that use really soft reeds. Playing little popsicle sticks ;-) is something that is highly overrated.
It used to be that students were told to start on 1.5 and then progress their way up through the reed strengths until they maxed out in the 4 or 4.5 area. (Like I was when I studied.) This has now been revised, and students usually are told to start around the 2 or 2.5 area, and then move up much later. But as I mentioned, there are lots of pros who use soft reeds... I know, because I have studied with a number of them, and studied the techniques of oral and throat cavity control.
And just as an aside, IMO, I don't think that Rico Orange box should be the standard to be judging a good reed sound by. You'd have to play through a hell of a lot of crappy Rico orange box reeds to find one that sounds really good. And I mean really good.
What reed do you highly recommend? I heard Vandoren is a great brand for reed, you know any thats better? I'm using #2 reed but was wondering if I should go to a 1.5... hmmm
Hi there Jrock, you've really poked around in a hornets nest with this question haven't you? ;-)
I wouldn't suggest you go down in reed strength. You say you're using a 2. What brand are you currently using? A 2 in a Rico is different than a 2 in a Vandoren.
Reeds are pretty subjective things, and what 1 player thinks are great, the next player thinks are junk. Personally, I gave up on cane reeds around 1998 and switched to Fibracell, but that's just me. I play 2.5 Fibracell reeds on all my saxes (S,A,T,B) but bass. On it, I play a Fibracell 1 or 1.5 (can't remember now), or soft.
In university I used Vandorens, but reed choices were much more limited in the 80s than they are now. Now a days there are so many options, that if I were to go back to using cane, I'd want to try lots of different brands.
It used to be that Rico Royals were good reeds. I don't know if that's as true now. I suspect not. Also Rico Plasticovers were a good choice for certain players, but I think they've changed as well over the past few years.
Getting back to your original question, you've been given some really good advice already in this thread. The Don Menza video that jbtsax linked to shows you really well how sax tone is really in your head, so to speak. A lot of it comes down to attitude and to your approach to the horn. However, in order to accomplish these things, you have to have work like crazy in developing certain areas of saxophone technique.
It was really good to read jbtsax's comments on tonal concept. That is a term I use regularly, but I hardly ever hear or read anyone else use. I would recommend that you internalize jbtsax's message, and take it to heart. He is right on the money.
jbtsax said:
I would highly recommend David Liebmans, Developing A Personal Saxophone Sound. I think this book is a very valuable read for anyone wanting to move beyond the basics of producing a saxophone sound. You can find a link to it, in an article I wrote that might also be helpful titled The Source Of Tone.
I wouldn't suggest you go down in reed strength. You say you're using a 2. What brand are you currently using? A 2 in a Rico is different than a 2 in a Vandoren.
Reeds are pretty subjective things, and what 1 player thinks are great, the next player thinks are junk. Personally, I gave up on cane reeds around 1998 and switched to Fibracell, but that's just me. I play 2.5 Fibracell reeds on all my saxes (S,A,T,B) but bass. On it, I play a Fibracell 1 or 1.5 (can't remember now), or soft.
In university I used Vandorens, but reed choices were much more limited in the 80s than they are now. Now a days there are so many options, that if I were to go back to using cane, I'd want to try lots of different brands.
It used to be that Rico Royals were good reeds. I don't know if that's as true now. I suspect not. Also Rico Plasticovers were a good choice for certain players, but I think they've changed as well over the past few years.
Getting back to your original question, you've been given some really good advice already in this thread. The Don Menza video that jbtsax linked to shows you really well how sax tone is really in your head, so to speak. A lot of it comes down to attitude and to your approach to the horn. However, in order to accomplish these things, you have to have work like crazy in developing certain areas of saxophone technique.
It was really good to read jbtsax's comments on tonal concept. That is a term I use regularly, but I hardly ever hear or read anyone else use. I would recommend that you internalize jbtsax's message, and take it to heart. He is right on the money.
jbtsax said:
I would highly recommend David Liebmans, Developing A Personal Saxophone Sound. I think this book is a very valuable read for anyone wanting to move beyond the basics of producing a saxophone sound. You can find a link to it, in an article I wrote that might also be helpful titled The Source Of Tone.
I was just using the orange box 2's because that's about as thin as they come... I still use Rico Royal 2.5's or equivalent strength on almost all of my horns. Classical tenor and bari goes up a little bit, and my clarinet reeds are stiff as boards... The studio pro's are usually playing larger tip openings where they can pass enough air by the reed to get it to blow well. Also usually on Vandoren's and they've figured out how to make thinner reeds sound better. I'm stuck in clarinet mode right now where you've gotta play popsicle sticks otherwise your altissimo starts squeaking left and right. Jazz sax is a whole other realm, my apologies
haha yea , Its a great read and I'm taking it all in because I want all I can get. And I do appreciate all you guys information.
I use a #2 cecilio reed brand which is a very low brand. Same goes with the mouthpiece. I really wanna get something better. I am very new at the game (2 weeks in) but I believe I am progressing very well. I learned pretty much the major notes for the alto sax, I'm still trying to get my embouchure at its best. I would have to practice 5-10 min before actually getting a good tone.
What I hate about reeds is that it comes in a pack of 10 =$20.00 or more
Because I would like to buy a few reeds especially in sizes. I wouldn't mind trying a 1.5 to get a feel of it compare to a 2.
But yea if you guys are interested here is a small clip of me playing the beginning of the original taxi driver theme with a bad karaoke mix. Its no where close to sounding the way I want it to sound but its a start.
http://filekeeper.org/download/shared/taxidrivedownload.mp3
I'm not above playing orange box rico's, and I've found they get much better after #3's. I use them on bari and soprano. Rico Reserve's are outstanding and select jazz's are quite good as well. Fibracell and Legere have really figured the synthetic reed thing out. I'd go get a decent mouthpiece before you start monkeying with reeds though. You can put the best cane reed on a ****ty mouthpiece and it'll still sound like crap. You don't sound that bad, and a lot of it is just thin and buzzy.
I'm thinkin if you got something like the Mojo Meyer, or the Kessler that it'll help a lot. Get a box of Vandoren 2's or Rico Royal 2's and work up to that. Trust us, be glad you're an alto player.
try being a bari player
http://www.wwbw.com/Vandoren-ZZ-Baritone-Saxophone-Reeds-470555-i1414781.wwbw
box of 5 for $32
You see why a lot of us use synthetics. I'm weird when it comes to reeds though. I can play on just about anything. Certain reeds sound better than others, but as long as the thickness is right, I can't really tell a difference in my sound or response in a Vandoren ZZ vs a Rico Orange box... I know people will beg to differ with this. I figure the jazz greats all used orange boxes, and didn't have the crazy choices we have now, so I shouldn't be so picky. I either suck or I don't, and my equipment has little to do with that. Certain things make life easier, but if I pick up my stock 5m that I got in 5th grade, put Orange box 3's on it, I still sound just like me. Same sound as my metal classic with Rico Royals. No thin buzzy crap, just me.
I'm thinkin if you got something like the Mojo Meyer, or the Kessler that it'll help a lot. Get a box of Vandoren 2's or Rico Royal 2's and work up to that. Trust us, be glad you're an alto player.
try being a bari player
http://www.wwbw.com/Vandoren-ZZ-Baritone-Saxophone-Reeds-470555-i1414781.wwbw
box of 5 for $32
You see why a lot of us use synthetics. I'm weird when it comes to reeds though. I can play on just about anything. Certain reeds sound better than others, but as long as the thickness is right, I can't really tell a difference in my sound or response in a Vandoren ZZ vs a Rico Orange box... I know people will beg to differ with this. I figure the jazz greats all used orange boxes, and didn't have the crazy choices we have now, so I shouldn't be so picky. I either suck or I don't, and my equipment has little to do with that. Certain things make life easier, but if I pick up my stock 5m that I got in 5th grade, put Orange box 3's on it, I still sound just like me. Same sound as my metal classic with Rico Royals. No thin buzzy crap, just me.
Thanks saxplayer I appreciate it! I'll go with vandoren reed. I haven't heard of Kessler, I'll find some clips of it and see how that sounds compare to meyer.
it is essentially a meyer. It starts as a blank and it's made to what the meyers used to be 60 years ago
well in that case I'll go with the mojo meyer. If possible could you tell me whats the difference in sizes for the mouthpiece?? should I start with the smallest one and work my way up?
nah, work with what you want from the start. Working up in tip openings is a lot more expensive than working up with reeds. Start that with a couple rico orange box 2's or something
http://www.wwbw.com/Rico-Alto-Saxophone-Reeds-462659-i1143447.wwbw
they're not the best reeds out there, but they're cheap, and you can get them in boxes of 3. So I'd buy a couple 2's, 2.5's, and 3's. That way you can work your way up to what you need. If you stop at 2.5's then that's fine, you can always shave the 3's down to work for you.
http://www.wwbw.com/Rico-Alto-Saxophone-Reeds-462659-i1143447.wwbw
they're not the best reeds out there, but they're cheap, and you can get them in boxes of 3. So I'd buy a couple 2's, 2.5's, and 3's. That way you can work your way up to what you need. If you stop at 2.5's then that's fine, you can always shave the 3's down to work for you.
I see a site that sells rico blue box for a few bucks more, is it worth it? or are they the same? I'll get 1.5/2.5 and work from there to see what works best for me.
Also regarding my last question, if I do get a meyer mouthpiece. I notice they come in like 5m , 6m, 7m. What do they mean and does it matter what I get? and should I stick with hard rubber? or is that for more advance level?
I enjoyed hearing you play that short excerpt. You are on your way to developing a nice sound. If I read your post correctly you have been playing a total of about 2 weeks now. If that is the case you are making good progress for such a new player. I think that we more experienced players can easily overload new students to the instrument with way too much information since we forgot what it was like at the beginning for us.
Here are my simple tips and suggestions for now.
-Don't get obsessed with professional mouthpieces just yet. You need to get rid of the Cecilio and at least move to a Yamaha 4C, or a Fobes Debut $20.00/$36.00 respectively on WWBW.com.
-Get used to a 2 1/2 reed as soon as possible.
-Practice long tones on the mouthpiece and neck adjusting the embouchure to produce an Ab concert pitch.
-Practice long tones on the saxophone using the same embouchure pressure.
That "sexy" detective theme sound that you like on alto is partly achieved by putting the mouthpiece a bit farther on the neck and then playing lower on the pitch of the mouthpiece. This takes a very well developed embouchure to accomplish with control and endurance. Hitting the "target" of Ab concert on the mouthpiece and neck is a good place to start. Remember there are no shortcuts to what you are trying to achieve. The results will come with regular focused practice sessions every day. Perhaps the very best investment you could make at this time would be to take some lessons from an accomplished player and teacher who could give you the correct concepts to get you started in the right direction. Good luck.