12M Jam

[Al Stevens]

I took my recently overhauled 12M to a local jam session Sunday night. This was to brush up my bari chops with tunes called by others. (I practice at home with my own backing tracks, which doesn't offer much in the way of surprises.)

This particular jam session has a good rhythm section. Its participants are mostly amateur singers, but sometimes they get horn players, too. I was one of three wind instrument players on Sunday. A trumpet player who is also a Space Shuttle astronaut (other way around, actually) and a retired Navy officer who plays clarinet. As you might guess, we played mostly ensemble Dixieland tunes with me playing trombone lines and solos on the bari.

The point of all this is to address an odd comment made by the piano player after the session. He nicely complimented my playing (that's part of his job, to encourage attendance and participation) and added that he was surprised that I played with good intonation. He said most bari players cannot play in tune, because, according to him, the bari itself has intonation problems. He's a Berkley graduate with a lot of playing experience.

I'd never heard that comment about the bari. Is that a common (mis)conception about the instrument?

 

[Steve]

so the piano player basically said all barisaxes are not designed properly for intonation ? Nor can the player adjust whilst playing ?

That's kinda like saying, when the piano hasn't been tuned fo a couple years, that pianos are designed to play flat !!

 

[Carl H.]

The bari can be played in tune, but the majority of my experiences, as a listener to ensembles both live and recorded, is that they tend to play flat. It doesn't have to be that way and it annoys me no end that people will play them this way.

 

[pete]

Y'know, it's a somewhat interesting question on a couple of levels.

We've been discussing about the inherent intonation of certain makes and models of saxophones, in another thread. I submit that certain pitches of saxophone have intonation problems.

As always, this is all things being equal: in other words, you take Joe Average Player and he plays more-or-less perfectly in tune on his Yamaha 23 Alto, but finds that -- without overly adjusting -- that the Eb on a Buffet SuperDynaction is really flat.

Now, I've played bari. For a long while. I was relatively in good tune. I then picked up a bass. And was REALLY out of tune. I've since been told by a lot of people that it was really not me, it's the instrument: you need to use a lot of "false" fingerings to get notes in better tune. It's a lot better on more modern instruments, though: the horn I played was a 1920's Conn (construction methods are a lot better, now). It's also better if you have years and years of playing experience on the bass, because you've taught yourself to compensate for the intonation problems. As you would on any instrument, really.

Another example: why do orchestras tune to the oboe? Because the oboe is really hard to get in tune.

So, you might have had a clarinet player that "knows" sax fingerings that just picked up a bari and thus exhibited poor intonation. Or your pianist confused bass and baritone.

BTB, I'll probably move this to sax general discussion in a while ....

 

[Al Stevens]

BTB, I'll probably move this to sax general discussion in a while ....

Where is that? I do not see it among the choices. Probably just me.

[edit] I think I found it.

 

[Ed]

I've heard the comment from trumpet players about the bari being out of tune. Somewhat in a joking manner. I know that the bari isn't any harder to play in tune than alto or tenor.

 

[saxhound]

Insert favorite "what's the difference between a bari sax and a .....?" joke here.

I read a quote somewhere recently (I think it might have been Ralph Morgan in The Devil's Horn), that all saxophones are inherently out of tune, and that it is up to the player to deal with it. Now I have to go dig out my book to see who said it.

BTW - totally off topic, but The Devil's Horn is a great read.

 

[tictactux]

I read a quote somewhere recently (...) that all saxophones are inherently out of tune

I can attest to that. I sit opposite of them.

and that it is up to the player to deal with it.

You mean...I should tell them...?

 

[Al Stevens]

Brass instruments are all inherently out of tune when played against equal-tempered tuning (except slide trombones). Just one of the vagaries of the mathematical properties of pitch in the 12-tone system.

 

[Old Dick]

After waiting a little more than a year for it to be delivered I recently acquired a Yanagisawa B992P. It is an amazingly in tune horn throughout its range. Moreso than any of my other horns – Selmers to Kesslers, soprillos to basses - and a true joy to play.

I don't think the floor peg helps the intonation at all, but it certainly helps the player - especially the aging doubler – and makes for MUCH more comfortable practice/performance. Ive never understood why a peg hasn't been a standard item on baris.

 

[Helen]

Ive never understood why a peg hasn't been a standard item on baris.

Yes, that is a good question. Bass clarinets often have them, yet they weigh considerably less.

Taking it one step further, why didn't bass saxophones come standard with pegs too?

 

[Gandalfe]

Yes, that is a good question. Bass clarinets often have them, yet they weigh considerably less.

Taking it one step further, why didn't bass saxophones come standard with pegs too?

Um... my Eppelsheim bass sax came with a heavy duty peg standard.

 

[sideC]

Yes....a good question. I started my long saxophone journey as a baritone player back in the early '60's. Back then, unlike today, there were lots of bari players working, people actually earning a living playing the horn. Gigs were 6 nights a week, 5 or 6 hours a night, so the bari player had to have a strong back. So, if you were working in a big band and sitting down, you could get away with playing the horn in a stand for most tunes. I used to watch Harry Carney and Charlie Fowlkes' stand technique, and they would take the horn out of the stand and use the neckstrap for fast tempos and solos.

The bell on the bari is large enough to support the instrument, using a bell collar device with some kind of tongue which connected the horn to the floor part of the stand. The bass clarinet back in those days had a little itty bitty bell, so it's stand had to support the horn in a way that the horn was not in playing position. Even the modern basses with a much larger bell can't be played in the stand. So the floor peg has become the norm for bass clarinet players.

Even though alto has become my main axe, I still enjoy getting to gig on my low A mk6 from time to time, and I still play the horn using the neckstrap only. The floor peg deal is quite baffling to me, but to each their own.


Julian

 

[pete]

Um... my Eppelsheim bass sax came with a heavy duty peg standard.

Quite a few Buffet S1 baris I've seen have pegs.

Personally, I think a peg on a sax, except for maybe a contrabass, is a bad idea. A peg implies that you have the horn in front of you, rather than slung off your right side. I don't think this is good form, even though a lot of alto players, some tenor players, and virtually all curved soprano players and straight soprano/alto/tenor/bari players do.

 

[Ed]

I like the idea of a peg and will probably have one of my horns converted to have one. Anything that takes strain off the back when playing bari is a good thing in my book.

 

[Gandalfe]

I like the idea of a peg and will probably have one of my horns converted to have one. Anything that takes strain off the back when playing bari is a good thing in my book.

Jay Easton often just tilts his instrument stand to play bari, bass, and contra bass saxes. Paul Woltz just turns to his bass in the stand and plays it that way as seen in this video. Still freaks me out how he holds the soprano about half way through.

With my reoccurring back pains this gives me an optimistic outlook for playing until I'm 90-ish.

 

[Al Stevens]

I play bari standing up and use a Neotech harness.

I'm not a big guy. I'm also not a young guy. The Neotech distributes the weight evenly across my shoulders, and I can stand there for a set without discomfort. Can't do that with a neck strap. No way.

It helps that my bari is a low Bb 12M. Not as heavy as some.

When doubling on tenor, I use the harness for that, too. The hook is in the right position for both, so no need to mess with onstage adjustments. That harness is nice for tenor. It's almost like the tenor is floating in air.

 

[Helen]

Um... my Eppelsheim bass sax came with a heavy duty peg standard.

I was actually referring to the vintage basses Jim. I know the Eppi comes with one. Too bad a person would have to sell a kidney, a lung, and a lobe from his liver to own one though. ;-)

 

[Gandalfe]

I was actually referring to the vintage basses Jim. I know the Eppi comes with one. Too bad a person would have to sell a kidney, a lung, and a lobe from his liver to own one though. ;-)

Some people buy boats, motorcycles, and convertables. I buy saxes.

 

[Helen]

Personally, I think a peg on a sax, except for maybe a contrabass, is a bad idea. A peg implies that you have the horn in front of you, rather than slung off your right side. I don't think this is good form, [emphasis added] even though a lot of alto players, some tenor players, and virtually all curved soprano players and straight soprano/alto/tenor/bari players do.

In which why do you mean Pete? Do you mean tonally? Posturally? When seated? When standing? Both? Could you please expand on this. I'm curious what you meant.

Back in my classical days in university, that was certainly what I was taught. We were told to get the proper tone, you had to hold the horn off to the right side. However those were also the same profs who said play a Selmer VI, with a Selmer whatever m/p, and whatever cane reed of choice was for the department.