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A Discussion About YAGE

Discussion in 'Forum Rules' started by clarinetgirlandswimmer, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. pete

    pete Brassica Oleracea Staff Member Administrator

    For those of you who don't know, "martysax" is a poster on SOTW that has been temp banned repeatedly, generally for posting something he really shouldn't. I actually coined the term "martysaxed" for people that got temp banned for something they said -- and the term stuck. (I hope to be up there with the folks that coined "LOL".)

    FWIW, I again mention that a) martysax came aboard SOTW after I left the Admin team and b) all bans were approved by Harri, SOTW's owner, when I was an Admin.
  2. tictactux

    tictactux Distinguished Member Distinguished Member

    I hear you, John...however my experience in the field of "upgrading" taught me to ask stupid questions.

    If someone came and said "my computer is slow, I want a new one", I try to pinpoint the cause for this impression, and sometimes it is indeed time for a new one, and sometimes all it takes is reformatting and reinstalling the operating system (comparable to a tech-going-over-an-instrument).

    I'd be a lousy salesperson, I know, but I usually take my "customers" seriously enough to offer a bit of my time and help them find out what's the right thing to do.

    Especially when someone with "lesser" equipment arrives it is not more than fair to find out what is bad and why; this will help to make a better decision next time.

    Anyhow, when I think I did something bad, I either apologise with a post, or a PM.
  3. This episode causes me to reflect. We had a disagreement a while back about encouraging children to participate on this forum. I learned privately that my position was not a popular one. Now, to me at least, it has been reinforced. (Probably not fair to base it on only one episode, though.)

    The child misunderstood the intent of an adult's advice, took it all to heart, and we've lost not only the child but a valued adult member.

    And now we have other members disagreeing about who meant what when who said what.

    I just stumbled across this thread today. I don't usually read clarinet threads. Makes me feel inferior, being a tenor player and all.

    (Maybe a "weak" YAGE should be called a YAWE.)

    I met Marty last year at the Saxophone Symposium. Interesting guy. I'd have hung with him longer, but I can't drink that good anymore.

    Do I detect an Incredibly Bad Idea lurking in this thread? Just joking.
  4. Tammi, if you can see this, I love you, and I miss you. Since you left here and I am persona non grata the other place where you post, we have become like "two stones that pass in the night."*

    * Seriously, a woman said that to me once. A blonde.
  5. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    The underlaying issue at hand is how does one advise a student .. whether that student is very young or older.

    When you teach and a student informs that teacher that they would like to upgrade (or the teacher recommends upgrading) they hae some insight on the fiscal capabilities of that student and know their playing abilities et all.

    Normally students are not adept enough to play test or search and research. They are after a 1 line answer of "buy <this or that instrument>". Such as the recommendations you hear of buying a YAS-23/Vito.

    But online we do not have that insight into that student. We don't know how much money, we don't know background or they may be playing an R13 that has leaks galore.

    We have to ask questions to get an understanding.
    We just need to be more civilized and understanding about it.
  6. Careful there, Al. Surely you wouldn't want to precipitate another YAGE (or even a YAWE):-D
  7. Groovekiller

    Groovekiller Distinguished Member Distinguished Member

    Pete wrote,

    "I hate you all. You're never going to see me here again. I have 2,437 years experience in the music industry (yes, in addition to everything else, I am the Highlander. There can be only one) and played with John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Sigurd Rascher, Benny Goodman, Adolphe Sax, Adam AND Eve. I helped design the Mark VI, Super 20, Martin Magna, Heckelphone, R13, Fox bassoon, and the Powell flutes!

    You won't have me to kick around anymore! Delete my account!"

    Could you send me the email of whoever played with Adolphe Sax, Sigurd Rascher, and Charlie parker? I have a couple of questions about both Adolphe and Bird.
  8. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    It wasn't me .. I didn't help at all with the Fox Bassoon even though Nixon asked me too ..... :emoji_imp:
  9. Wow, you guys sure know how to make someone from SOTW feel right at home. :emoji_rage:

    Al: Good to see you and your sharp wit again.

    Tammi: By all means chill out, but come back soon. Al is not your only fan!
  10. pete

    pete Brassica Oleracea Staff Member Administrator

    I can think of another few things, but I'll leave with, "The main idea is to play nice. Also note that everyone here isn't a native English speaker, so try to take everything in the nicest possible way. Even those of us who are native English don't always say the right thing, or drop words or whatever, so step back a bit."

    FWIW, there have only been three or four actual members that have been banned here (in two years).
  11. tictactux

    tictactux Distinguished Member Distinguished Member

    I should add that Chuck Norris is my repairman.
  12. WooF cannot really have YAGEs. "YA" requires that there have been many before. "G" a certain amount of pomp and circumstance, which WooF thankfully seems to manage without. That leaves "E".

    It is simple to assume that people who exit always leave because they are overtly sensitive. However, based on my experience on SOTW, I would say that just as often other members are to blame. I don't know how many times I have seen a newcomer asking a question and/or posting something for sale and being bullied with condescending remarks about search function and posting rules. Forgetting to list where something ships from does not entitle other members to give rude responses. Not being able to derive much information from the search function does not imply stupidity. In most cases, it would make more sense to complain that people haven't used Google instead.

    Also, I don't know how many times I have seen a member ask about A and being told that they should concern themselves with B instead, which sometimes is fine, other times not so fine. For instance, if a person had decided to buy a Mark VI tenor and came to the forum for advice on what vintage sax retailer I could trust, then it might just be a good idea to help the person accomplish hers/his goals. Not tell her/him that it is a waste of money, that she/he is too young to make a decision, and/or that it really is more important to practice on your YTS-23. It might just be a someone with blockbuster chops on the end of the line (...is anyone going to tell a Fracesco Cafiso that he shouldn't buy any sax he desires???).

    Moderators aren't perfect either. Some lack a sense of logic and enforce their own rules erratically. Everybody makes mistakes, so perhaps it is wise to acknowledge it when it happens instead of denying it. Even if you are a moderator, chances are that you will run into individuals who are smarter and/or have a better sense of logic. At least admit it if you really messed up, perhaps not publicly but then write a PM.

    Finally, there is the thing about humor that Gandalfe points out and discussed elsewhere. I am guilty of that in spades and try to moderate it.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2010
  13. All the girls where I grew up were female....I think:emoji_relaxed:
  14. Always remember... YAGE also stands for "Yet Another Grand Entrance". Meaning, you're always welcome to come back :)
  15. SOTSDO

    SOTSDO Old King Log Staff Member CE/Moderator

    One problem that I have seen on this (and other services) is the tendency to use code phrases and acronyms like "YAGE", the web (and other programming) tags like "[moderatormode] blah, blah, blah [/moderatormode]", and other "shorthand" like "LMAO". While this may get the message across to those in the know, it leaves those less "web board enabled" out of the loop.

    I've been involved in moderating since the early days of personal computers (starting when I was once the infamous (to the Apple Newton community, at least) "PDC Sensha" on America Online, a long, long, long time ago), so I'm not exactly new to the concepts involved, but I have to confess that I had no earthly idea as to what "YAGE" meant. I can only imagine what a (nominally, see below) eight or twelve year old girl, searching for help on a woodwind bulletin board, thinks when she sees such stuff.

    The rules of composition that I was force-fit to allowed for abbreviations, acronyms and the like, just so long as you define them at the first instance that they are used. Now, obviously, there are limits to this sort of thing - imagine having to define "PM" as "Post Meridian", a definition that would also need to be defined for most, each time it first came up in an internet posting. But, I think it is better to say "We don't tolerate nasty postings around these parts when you are leaving" than it is to respond (undefined) "YAGE".

    (Of course, I know that most are not as well-endowed in the typing department as are the likes of moi (French for "me"). Many of these shorthand phrases may have had their genesis in the ham-hands of two fingered touch typists. Still, if the purpose of the Internets is to communicate, there as few obstacles as possible ought to be placed between the speaker ("typer") and the listener ("reader").

    Of course, this is not my website, and bear in mind that these are only my opinions. But, they are opinions that are also held by those far more qualified in communications than me...


    From the style and content of the postings from the young lady who is part of this discussion, I get the impression that she is either exceptionally intelligent for her age, or that she is not really what she seems.

    This is nothing new. The news media carry stories of adults posing as children on the Internet, and I would imagine that any given person could come up with some reason to do this. Why, I don't know. But, I suspect it nonetheless.

    Similarly, I am of the opinion that virtually all of the folks with low post counts who put up something like "I have an old saxophone that used to belong to my uncle - (here, insert description of generic Conn horn) - how much is it worth?" are nothing more than folks trying to make a buck on eBay with a horn that they picked up in a pawn shop.

    But, we're not about to start certifying everyone that we meet on the Internets...
  16. Although YAGE seems to be well-known to users of forums such as this one, a google search does not return the definition we use, so I would not feel left out on that one. I recall that I had to ask the first time I saw it on another forum.
    Abbreviated acronym and emoticon usage originated in the old days when we used 300 baud modems and tty devices to manage online business. Pre-Internet even. It has more recently been adopted by the iPhone texting kids because those little keyboards are so difficult to use. OMG, WTF.
  17. Gandalfe

    Gandalfe Admin and all around good guy. Staff Member Administrator

    Point taken about being clear when communicating. I enjoy using slang if'n I feel like it. But there is always a kinda twinge on my part especially having been a tech writer at one point in my life. It can also be hard for our readers with ESL (English as a Second Language) skills.

    Should we demand that every one use high English, with proper grammar and few if any dangling participles? Naw, we encourage our forum users to strive to be understandable and to the extend that they are capable, that seems to work.

    In my experience, acronyms abound in every arena of endeavor. I look up the new ones and if I can't find them online and if I care enough, I'll ask for a definition. I can't imagine telling people to stop using acronyms at work; they'd probably think I was a jerk. Changing fields will really demonstrate how annoying the over-use of acronyms can be. My first day at Microsoft I had over 20 new acronyms written in my notebook. And I thought the military was bad.

    Sure, it's an extra step to look stuff up. But as long as the writing isn't crazy full of acronyms, I don't mind learning something new. If there are so many acronyms, slang, and grammar problems that I can't follow, I'll probably just move on to the next post. That happens about once a week on the various forums that I participate in.

    What is a little more insidious to me is the use of the inside joke. I guess you had to be there is the mentality of a lot of people who use them. That can be frustrating and certain fosters a climate of exclusion.
  18. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    I remember the 130baud manual duplex selection modems. Ahh .. those were the days .. online chat rooms ... pure text based .....
  19. pete

    pete Brassica Oleracea Staff Member Administrator

    You kids had text? Why I remember .... Hey! You! Get off my lawn!
  20. tictactux

    tictactux Distinguished Member Distinguished Member

    "That'd be post meridiem. This is Latin, not longitude. "
    Of course, if you're a sailor you may feel a faint bump when you cross a meridian.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2010
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