Acoustic Shields

Hi all

Our community wind band are looking at the necessity and economic viability of buying acoustic shields. They would mainly be for our flute section sitting in front of the trumpets, and the bass clari and bassoon and others in front of the trombones (so to protect the ears of those in front of forward facing brass bells).

Part of me thinks that we should have done this a long time ago, and that we must do it now having considered it. Part of me thinks a band gets noisy, live with it - they are expensive and bulky and can look intrusive. [OK - I want to offer a balanced view to start the discussion, I actually think we should use them - I'm a doctor, after all!]

What I am interested in is how widely they are used in your settings, and what factors were taken account of in your decision to use or not use them.

Chris
 
I've only used them with drum kits, never with anything else. All the reasons you put against them are the reasons why I've never used them. They also don't seem to help much. Why are your flutes in front of the trumpets anyway?

I play in a bagpipe band and we use earplugs. We don't have volume control, and a pipe band sits somewhere between 115 and 130 decibels. *That's REALLY loud*. Tell the trumpets and trombones to dip the bells down. Usually the problem is getting them to get their bells high enough.

If they have a problem with their ears, tell them to get earplugs. If they whine and say "I won't be able to hear myself play", tell them to get over it.

I use these both in my pipe band as well as the big band *I'm in the bari chair in front of a bass trombone with a fog horn fetish*
http://www.carolinacelt.com/catalog...d=870&osCsid=f159b949465138e7391f5c2cff22412a

The sound in the audience will be greatly affected by the playing shields as well, and not for the good. In order for the proper balance to be achieved, each brass player will have to play louder for their sound to be heard at the proper levels. This will then defeat the purpose of the shields in the first place.


Personal opinion. Reseat the band.

percussion-tubas
trumpets-trombones-euphoniums
3rd clarinets-bari sax-tenor saxes-alto saxes-french horns
2nd clarinets-bass clarinets-bassoons-oboes
1st clarinets-flutes
conductor

I've played in many different bands that use this setup, and it works pretty well. Hope this helps.
 
I agree that the seating plan should be re-evaluated. Shields are necessary in pro situations, where we have prolonged daily exposure to high levels of sound, but not in a community band.


But even in pro situations, you only really use them in the multi hour rehearsal. I can't recall ever seeing them in used in performance. When I've been at Tanglewood, I've seen the BSO and Pops use them, but that was in the rehearsal halls for the 4+ hour rehearsals. They vanished during performance spare the one for the drum set.
 
The plexi shields don't really do that much good, IMO. They're pretty much a placebo.

Earplugs work.

Saxplayer1004 GET A GOOD SET OF EARPLUGS NOW and ALWAYS wear them when playing Highland pipes. If the levels are what you're talking are real, then you've already started the damage.

I have tinnitus, and when it's quiet, I have a constant cricket accompaniment on a bad day. It's fairly quiet on a good one. I wish someone had warned me years ago.
 
In some situations, the shields do help.

They're used quite extensively in pits, though it's usually for the sound engineers to be able to prevent bleed.

I practice picc with both earplugs in, though in performance, I just wear one in my right ear.
 
Oh I know the pits used them, I was just referring to full band setting. I've used them lord knows how many times in the pit. We were all mic'd though, so that was the only way the sound guys could control volume.

I have a good set of earplugs. I had my ENT doctor custom fit a set of earplugs for me last year. Somehow my pipes director has gone 40 years of the things, never worn earplugs, and still has full hearing. I'm not taking my chances. Problem I have with those is they cut too much noise, so I only use them in full band rehearsal, but I use the pipers earplugs for practice and stuff. They cut ~40db so it's a nice dull roar. The custom ones cut close to 80.
 
Oh I know the pits used them, I was just referring to full band setting. I've used them lord knows how many times in the pit. We were all mic'd though, so that was the only way the sound guys could control volume.

I have a good set of earplugs. I had my ENT doctor custom fit a set of earplugs for me last year. Somehow my pipes director has gone 40 years of the things, never worn earplugs, and still has full hearing. I'm not taking my chances. Problem I have with those is they cut too much noise, so I only use them in full band rehearsal, but I use the pipers earplugs for practice and stuff. They cut ~40db so it's a nice dull roar. The custom ones cut close to 80.

Your pipes director knows about a river in Egypt: De Nile. I'm familiar with that river, myself.

Just make sure you use the plugs.
 
In some situations, the shields do help.

They're used quite extensively in pits, though it's usually for the sound engineers to be able to prevent bleed.

I practice picc with both earplugs in, though in performance, I just wear one in my right ear.

Yes, it's for the engineers. They help in the upper mids.

I have lots of trade secrets that were hard earned about mixing pit orchestras. :cool:
 
I suppose there are a number of issues at play

One is a matter of comfort - when our flutes had an acoustic shield we had on loan behind them, they felt much happier and comfortable (placebo maybe, but they were happier, which counts alot!).

Another is the matter of good practice of reducing noise exposure in general, and shields may play a part and be a compromise between louder exposure, and muffled hearing from ear defenders.

The last is of course safety. HSE regs say that there is an upper noise exposure action value of 85dB daily exposure (still looking for a definition of daily exposure) and peak exposure action is at 137dB. HSE comments that brass section will not benefit from seating reorganisation because their exposure comes from themselves.

Chris
Refs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/hsl_pdf/2006/hsl0696.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/musicsound.htm
 
So with that being said about the hearing stuff. Try reseating the band so the saxes and horns would be in front of the trumpets and bones. They are used to rather loud instruments in the backs of their heads on a regular basis and shouldn't find themselves any worse for the wear because of it. It's certainly much cheaper.

I know he's probably in denial, but somehow he still has his ear. He tunes one note on each set of pipes with a tuner so we're all in the same pitch, and does all of the tape adjusting and drone tuning by ear. It's insane. If he has no hearing problems, it certainly has gone to his hands, he's having a lot of trouble playing now.
 
I know he's probably in denial, but somehow he still has his ear. He tunes one note on each set of pipes with a tuner so we're all in the same pitch, and does all of the tape adjusting and drone tuning by ear. It's insane. If he has no hearing problems, it certainly has gone to his hands, he's having a lot of trouble playing now.

He may still be able to tune and hear music, ... at 110 db.
 
He may still be able to tune and hear music, ... at 110 db.

Yes, but can you talk to him in a normal tone of voice, and have him understand you?

S,P,T,B,D,K are all between 10 and 12kHZ--make sure he can't see your lips when you talk to him. I bet he has high frequency loss.
 
...The last is of course safety. HSE regs say that there is an upper noise exposure action value of 85dB daily exposure (still looking for a definition of daily exposure) and peak exposure action is at 137dB. HSE comments that brass section will not benefit from seating reorganisation because their exposure comes from themselves.

Chris
I used to work for OSHA, our safety and health organization here in the United States, retiring after a whole thirty-nine and one-half years of total Federal government service. I had employees who dealt with noise issues on a weekly basis, and I still know my way around our noise regulations pretty well.

The "daily" figure that they (the health and safety folks in the UK) use for computing exposure is an eight hour work day. The sampling used to determine the exposure is usually only six hours or so - they extrapolate the rest.

Here in the United States, the 85 dB on the A scale figure is the "starting point" for hearing protection/conservation. Once a workplace makes the 85 dBA over eight hours level, here they are required to monitor all workplace processes, give annual hearing exams to the employees, and provide hearing protection to those who want it. There is no requirement, however, that it be worn at that level of exposure.

Once the sound pressure levels exceed 90 dBA over an eight hour period, the employer must first attempt to engineer out the noise. If that is not successful, they then must institute administrative controls to bring the exposure time down below 90 dBA. (Permitted exposure times drop as the dBA readings go up.) Only when the other two methods do not or can not work is the use of hearing protection acceptable as an abatement method.

While OSHA, to my knowledge, has never sampled for noise in a symphonic situation, there have been pop situations (and at least one in a topless bar) where the regulations have been applied.

The US Army has gone this one better, performing a comprehensive sampling of a wide variety of noise making operations. (As an example, the main gun on the then-current main battle tank pegs the meter out at 140 dBA.) Included was some sampling data on Army bands. However, the girl who worked on this (and used to work for me) took all of the information with her when she moved up north (and I only kept a copy of what was pertinent to my DVA claim for hearing loss).

The great problem people with "normal" music are the trumpets and the flutes/octave flute. Everything else is "withstandable", but not those two.

The notion that "impact noise" can cause hearing loss is widespread, but really only severe noise levels (like the tank gunnery situation above) will cause loss from impact noise. And, most ears can withstand the levels during a regular two to three hour rehearsal without any permanent damage.

However, the levels that a pipe band generates (remember that the drones are sounding continuously when the pipes are being played) would be of concern due to the high, constant noise level.

Ear plugs, even of the foam, bought-at-the-drug-store type, should be adequate for the sound pressures encountered in a typical music situation (our kind of music). When they get grotty with ear wax, you just throw them in the washing machine with the rest of your laundry, and they clean right up. (Do not run them through the dryer, however - squeeze the excess water out, and let them air dry.)

Rock music folks need the fitted kind, which will offer greater attenuation than will the standard foam plugs. If you play in a standard, highly amplified rock situation, you too should get the fitted ones. They cost a lot more, but they have a level of protection far above the store-bought type.
 
Our chanters are continuous as well. On the warpipes we have no method of stopping any one pipe. It's all or nothing.

Somehow he can still very clearly from across the room at normal talking levels, he regularly yells at us for having conversations while he's tuning. I think he's just a freak of nature, but that's just me.

There isn't any real impact on pipes, it's just the continuous high level of sound. Parents found this thread and decided I'm getting fitted earplugs this weekend when I go home. Can't hurt.
 
Our chanters are continuous as well. On the warpipes we have no method of stopping any one pipe. It's all or nothing.

Somehow he can still very clearly from across the room at normal talking levels, he regularly yells at us for having conversations while he's tuning. I think he's just a freak of nature, but that's just me.

There isn't any real impact on pipes, it's just the continuous high level of sound. Parents found this thread and decided I'm getting fitted earplugs this weekend when I go home. Can't hurt.

Well, bless your parents.

I got a couple of fifes after reading that they could be heard on battlefields above the artillery. Funny thing, I tried playing them and found out that they are damn loud! I will be wearing at least one ear plug the next time I try them out. Watch out, neighbors.
 
Our chanters are continuous as well. On the warpipes we have no method of stopping any one pipe. It's all or nothing.

Somehow he can still very clearly from across the room at normal talking levels, he regularly yells at us for having conversations while he's tuning. I think he's just a freak of nature, but that's just me.

There isn't any real impact on pipes, it's just the continuous high level of sound. Parents found this thread and decided I'm getting fitted earplugs this weekend when I go home. Can't hurt.

Yep, our bandleader yells about our conversations, too. Most questions directed to him, if there is ANY noise is 'Huh?' It bothers him Precisely because he has a hearing loss.
 
Ain't the bottom line of all this conversation that the musician (if inclined to attend some sort of band vs eg chamber music) should be accustomed to wearing earplugs, and should trained to learn to listen/hear with them plugged in?
I think it's a matter of learning to cope with those plugs. And to stir awareness.
 
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