Antique and period woodwind

[Chris J]

Hi Ed

My interest in clarinets seems to have widened recently. I started the "Lebret" thread recently and got alot of information from it.

I have recently acquired an antique C clarinet, simple system with Patent C sharp mechanism. I'll post some pictures below. I am getting a simple system bass clarinet soon, late 19th century.

The point of my thread is to ask if you think the forum would benefit from having an antique and period section. There are lots of these things selling on Ebay and auction houses. I have come across many players who collect them. Although there is interest in them, I have struggled to find good information sources.

Sort of things I would be interested in is

How to sympathetically restore them
What to use to clean them
History of makers
Dating instruments
Valuing instruments
Fingering system
many others....

Just a thought....

Chris

 

[tictactux]

Looks like a neat idea. A lot of your issues is, however, covered in other forums, like the whole repair/restoration business, maintenance etc.

Also, I sense some disagreement about how to threat and what to do with 'period' things (not just clarinets - a friend of mine is a '68 Corvette aficionado, and he finds some of my repair ideas, well, heretic. )
Some want their clunkers for displaying, some others want to play (or drive) on them etc etc, and all requires (at least subtly) different ways of overhauling. (eg felt pads vs leather pads vs Valentinos).

I am sorry to report that I probably haven't answered your question.

Edit: Kewl pics, by the way. Mouthwatering.

 

[SOTSDO]

I fell in love with Albert bass clarinets in the halcyon days of my youth, and remember the playing experience as more enjoyable than my time with modern Selmer basses. True, there were occasional issues with stuff like the little finger keys and the manual double octave keys, but nothing that could not be overcome by technique and practice.

The sacrifices in intonation could be compensated for in the same way that we favor and color certain notes on Boehm horns. And, the keywork wasn't all that bad, particularly when you had the patent C# mechanism.

One of the greatest virtuosi of the clarinet (Lazarus) never played a Boehm horn for performance purposes in his life, and that didn't seem to hold him back at all. (It did, however, make some of the etudes in his method sort of pointless on the Boehm instrument.)

Those who have never experienced anything but the Boehm horn are hurting themselves. The other horns are more "connected" with the original clarinet. Not better by a long shot, just different.

But, expense and "trouble" will keep this from happening. Getting an older (and, let's face it now, all of the quality Albert or Oehler horns are going to be older) instrument into shape costs some money, and most will not heed the comments of the likes of us that there's something worthwhile there.

My family had a Model A that I got quite a bit of use out of during my high school years. We "restored" it to the extent that it was automotively safe and more than capable of being used for day to day, non-highway driving. I used to use it to take girls out in it during the cooler months, and put in several thousand miles a year for this and other purposes.

While doing so, I would occasional get comments about how I was using a "priceless antique" (which it was not; we bought it dirt cheap and in operating condition) for stuff like cruising the Steak 'n' Shake (which I did not; I parked and went inside to eat and saw no point in driving around a parking lot in low gear). My point always was that I had bought into a car, not a museum piece, and that it worked quite well (within its limitations) as same - why not use it?

Old rubber and temperamental ignition and fuel systems aside, I'd still do the same thing if I owned the car today, some forty years further on. Just as I do with my nigh on century old saxophone, I'd continue to use it.

 

[pete]

Well, it's also antique vs. old vs. valuable.

I tend to think that even if it's a POS clarinet from the 19th century, one could easily consider it antique, but not necessarily valuable.

And valuable could mean "because it's a good playing horn" or "because it's worth a lot".

Any horn of any kind produced prior to WWII (and some slightly after) could be pitched in something other than A=440/442hz, making it unplayable, except for solos (or with strings or a synth).

There are a very few antique clarinets that are insanely valuable, but most aren't. I think a lot of the boxwood and ivory clarinets are quite beautiful, but they're not worth that much. Heck, I think the mahogany/rosewood Conns from around WWII are too, and they're also not worth much.

Also, with "antique" clarinets, I'd caution that you get a fully keyed horn. If you get a horn that's earlier than, say, 1839, it's probably going to be a horn that has reduced keywork, Boehm or not.

However, answering the question of havening an antique/period section, I wouldn't mind, but would you rather have it for each family or in just one place? (Actually, I suppose I could do both.) Do you want me to poll the question?

 

[Chris J]

The Bass Clarinet on its way is made by Rudall Carte. It took a long time searching, but I came across a PDF of Boosey and Hawkes Archive documents including stock books from 1857 which includes companies: Distin and Co.; Boosey and Sons; Hawkes and Son; Rudall Carte; Besson and Co.; Besson (Paris)

http://www.horniman.ac.uk/pdf/BH_archive_detailed_handlist.pdf

On page 30 there is the start of Rudall Carte Archival documents, and on the bottom of page 33 it mentions "Tenor & bass clarionets: 3912-5539 (with gaps)" - mine is 3913 which places the instrument as 1882 to 1901 if I read the stock book correctly.

It has very similar key work to the advert below. I wonder what wood it will be made from...

Chris

 

[Dave Dolson]

I'm one to think that more simplicity will work on these forums. Adding yet another section is just more space. I think all of these issues can be covered under the existing sections.

I really enjoyed your photos. My recent gift of a no-name Made-In-France C-Albert clarinet is still in the repair shop. I called yesterday and the tech said they were close to finishing it but some of the key cups had internal damage that caused the installed pads to fail to seat properly. Each time that was discovered, they had to re-shape the inside of the key cup.

Last week, we vacationed in France, cruising the River Seine from Le Havre to Paris. When we arrived in Paris, I was able to play one evening at some restaurant in south Paris with a cornetist with whom I'd played for many years. He lives there now and has a band. The alto saxophone player (doubled on Albert clarinet) was superb. He had what looked like a modern-made Albert - I've sent him an e-mail to ask about the brand. He played it very nicely and it sounded wonderful. DAVE

 

[SOTSDO]

Hey, I like those prices. My order will be send off by air post on the earliest autogyro. The only question that I have is can I use decimal pounds to pay for them, or is it going to be in pounds, shillings and pence?

 

[Gandalfe]

Two quick observations. Photobucket really provides high-quality pictures. Much nicer than what we normally see.

Doing research and actually finding some pertinent information about vintage instruments really is a satisfying experience, is it not?

Fascinating.

 

[Chris J]

Two quick observations. Photobucket really provides high-quality pictures. Much nicer than what we normally see.

Doing research and actually finding some pertinent information about vintage instruments really is a satisfying experience, is it not?

Fascinating.

I agree on both counts! The pictures took a bit of work before getting them onto photobucket, though. Canon SLR with 28-135 image stabilised lens. Hotshoe flash bounced from the camera and reflected to backlight the logos. Photoshop to adjust lighting levels, cropping, a touch of sharpening and saving a 300dpi photos compressed to 6cm width with level 10 jpg compression. Ok - it is one of my other hobbies...

As for doing the research, what it makes it so enjoyable is the online community joining in and sharing their experience too, for which, thanks.

Chris
Edited as forgot to say - nice shot of your Selmer

 

[SOTSDO]

I love seeing these well preserved Selmer horns (they are instantly identifiable by the "fluted" barrel section). They make mockery of the "All metal clarinets are junk" statement when played, but they are magnificent to look at as well. Too bad so many of them have been trashed by poor storage.

I have a full Boehm metal Selmer, in very good condition save only some tooth marks on the barrel where someone applied mechanical force to separate the joints. If Chris or anyone else knows where I can get a good condition Selmer metal Bb clarinet barrel, I'll get it restored.

The moral of the story is to not leave horns assembled for any period of time.

 

[Tammi]

I'm going to get into so much trouble for this but...

Gandolf,
You are a sadistic bastard.
That has to be one the most beautiful silver clarinets I think I've ever seen.

And before I get sent to 'Time Out"
Chris,
Your *C* is much nicer than my Henri Farny.

 

[Chris J]

Sorry Gandalfe, I was provoked by Tammi

These are my two. The full Boehm is an A

SOTSDO - The only person I know who has silver clarinets going through his hands such that he may get a replacement barrel is Taxijazz on SOTW. But I guess there are more instruments without a barrel than the other way round out there. No way of repairing the one you have?

Chris

 

[Steve]

I still recall the day Chris stole the bid on ebay UK for those paired Selmer clarinets away from me. well .. ok .. I actually did not bid .. BUT I WANTED TOO !!

 

[Tammi]

Thank Chris, Just what I DIDN'T need to see.
You have now replaced Gandolf on the top of the 'Sadistic Bastard' list.
Not only do you have a silver A, but is a Full B as well. I've gotten drool all over my keyboard thank you very much.

 

[Chris J]

I fell in love with Albert bass clarinets in the halcyon days of my youth, and remember the playing experience as more enjoyable than my time with modern Selmer basses. True, there were occasional issues with stuff like the little finger keys and the manual double octave keys, but nothing that could not be overcome by technique and practice.

SOTSDO - The Bass Clarinet has just arrived, and an interesting array of keys and levers it is too! I have much to learn about it, and will start a new thread regarding it, but I would ask you to look out for the thread, as it has manual double octave keys and I will be very interested to know if you can tell me how each are deployed!...

What have I done!....

Chris
PS - Tammi - if its any consolation the Bb is standard (well fairly standard other than more sliver trill keys than seems decent) - it is the A that is full Boehm. Don't ask my why!...

 

[SOTSDO]

SOTSDO - The only person I know who has silver clarinets going through his hands such that he may get a replacement barrel is Taxijazz on SOTW. But I guess there are more instruments without a barrel than the other way round out there. No way of repairing the one you have?

I've just dug mine out of the "Dead SOTSDO Storage" facility and given it the once over. Top to bottom, here is the appraisal:

Tuning barrel: serious scratching through finish and into base metal on mouthpiece socket, some gouging and scratching through finish and into base metal on fluted section of barrel. Despite the application of extreme force by some thick individual in the past, the tuner runs in and out flawlessly. The barrel is marked with the appropriate "Sib" on the rear - ya gotta love them Frenchies for their adherence to such an out of date method of identification.

Upper joint: Other than some plating wear on the Ab key, top joint is flawless save one bad pad (register key, squashed cork) and tarnish overall. Eb fork mechanism needs a turn or two to the adjustment screw, but that's it.

Lower joint: Other than tarnish, flawless. Hell, it even has what appears to be the original lyre (which screws into a socket between the two top pads on the lower joint - this is the only soprano clarinet that I own that can take a lyre).

Unlike that on the barrel, there are no pitch markings on either joint (or the bell), only the stamped serial number in the 43XX range. It's been so long since I've handled another Selmer metal horn that I don't have any idea where this one falls in the grand scheme of things. (Where are your two located?)

From what I can make out in that incredible photograph, mine are marked the same way on the bells, with the inscription reading (from the top):

Déposé
(Selmer Paris logo)
Sole Agents
U.S. & Can.
(Selmer USA Elkhart logo)
Reg. U.S. Patent Office
Made In France

Bell: Other than tarnish, flawless. (Where the fabrication joint is located you can just barely see a difference in the tarnish, indicating the solder joint below the plating.) There is some "grotty stuff" down along the turned up rim of the bell (upper side of the "bell ring"), but that should go in the preparation bath for plating. Oh, and the bell rings like a - well, like a bell - when you plunk it with a thumbnail.

I also noted that mine is only a "part full Boehm", with no Eb lever and no low Eb. I've not played it for several years (and only played it once when I got it at that), so mea culpa for that. They're still good horns, for all of that, and magnificent when kept up or restored. (On mine, 'though neglected for many, many years, both the fork Eb and the articulated G# are working flawlessly.)

But, there is that "metal clarinet" stigmata that accompanies them wherever you go. Good playing can overcome that, but it's an uphill battle. Back in the 1970's, when I played one on an "often, frequently" basis, that was the means employed to shut down the carping - if you started out knocking out stuff like an Italian virtuoso, it made it hard for them to complain.

Now I'm going to go play it and see if my original impressions are still the right ones.

 

[SOTSDO]

PS - Tammi - if its any consolation the Bb is standard (well fairly standard other than more sliver trill keys than seems decent) - it is the A that is full Boehm. Don't ask my why!...

From what I can see through the jumble of clarinet parts in that photograph, the Bb horn has the standard G# trill key located between the first and second holes on the lower joint, the one that is normally found associated with the articulated G# mechanism. However, the A horn, while clearly possessing an articulated G# mechanism, does not have said key. I've seen this once before (no trill key with the articulated G# mechanism), but only on a Bb horn and a wood one at that.

Note too that neither the A nor the Bb horns have the Eb lever (the same as my horn). I have noted this on a metal horn that I played in the past, and cannot explain the absence.

The extension of the A horn to low Eb is curious, but typical of the sort of thing coming out of Selmer back in the day. They have produced full Boehm wood clarinets in Bb (for the A transposition), in Eb (for the D transposition), and in A (for God alone knows what reason) for many, many years.

While the low Eb on the A horn serves no consistently useful purpose (no Ab soprano parts out there in clarinet land), it does serve an acoustic purpose. Soprano clarinets with low Eb extensions all emit the low E (and B in the staff) from a tonehole rather than from the bell. I (me, myself) feel that this allows for a more consistent sound over the break than it normally present with a standard Boehm horn.

Ditto on bass clarinets, although it is hard for most to find a working bass clarinet without the low Eb extension. (I have one, in Albert keywork - eat your collective hearts out.)

And, here's a thought. Perhaps Selmer, with the low Eb key on Chris' metal A clarinet, was trying to construct a bass clarinet analog to the Ab sopranino clarinet. Damn, but the Selmer brothers were clever. They probably also anticipated the burgeoning market for the alto clarinet with jazz aficionados; that would account for all of those alto clarinets that they made over the years...

 

[Gandalfe]

Sorry Gandalfe, I was provoked by Tammi. These are my two. The full Boehm is an A

And you pics are much nicer than mine. I expect to see more pics from you in Pete's calendar project going forward. Either that or you have to come to my house to take pics of my stuff.

Thank Chris, Just what I DIDN'T need to see. You have now replaced Gandolf on the top of the 'Sadistic Bastard' list. Not only do you have a silver A, but is a Full B as well. I've gotten drool all over my keyboard thank you very much.

Who's Gandolf? I have that drool problem too except it's usually at a different Web site.

And, here's a thought. Perhaps Selmer, with the low Eb key on Chris' metal A clarinet, was trying to construct a bass clarinet analog to the Ab sopranino clarinet. Damn, but the Selmer brothers were clever. They probably also anticipated the burgeoning market for the alto clarinet with jazz aficionados; that would account for all of those alto clarinets that they made over the years...

You and those alto clarinets. The funny thing is you probably would play one better than most anyone I know here.

 

[Tammi]

Chris
PS - Tammi - if its any consolation the Bb is standard (well fairly standard other than more sliver trill keys than seems decent) - it is the A that is full Boehm. Don't ask my why!...

Please re-read my post. You'll see that I DID say that the A was a Full Boehm (Full B).

 

[pete]

And you pics are much nicer than mine. I expect to see more pics from you in Pete's calendar project going forward. Either that or you have to come to my house to take pics of my stuff.

Well, I can't see the pics, nut I would love to do a woodwind calendar.

And have pics of all of Jim's stuff, too.