Bari Sax Improvement

Hi guys,

I have been playing the alto for 8 years now, and recently switched to bari sax (marching season). Luckily, I didn't need to have any really skill on the bari to play marching music, but moving into concert season, that changes.

I desperately need to build some control over the bari. I have two main problems:

1. Octave Key Slurred Intervals: especially C to D in the middle range. It takes a second before the note comes out. I had the same problem the first two years of playing the alto, but I can't wait two years to fix this. How do I fix these transitions?

2. Dynamic Range: On the bari, I of course need to use more air. When I use more air, it ends up being really loud, which is good for marching season. I need to learn to use more air slowly. What is the best way to build this skill?
 
Hi there JCINMA. First of all let me say "Welcome" to the Woodwind Forum.

What you're describing is very common. This passage from C to D2 is often called "going over the break" or something along those lines. Bari saxes are not very forgiving, and any weaknesses in your breathing technique will show up. That particular place (C to D2 transitions) is where it will show up the most obviously.

The first question I always start with is: Is the horn in good repair? Does it have any leaks? The bigger the horn, the more prone to leaking they are, and the harder the leaks are to compensate for. As you become a better player on said horn, you can compensate for the leaks, but in the beginning, having a horn in good repair is really important.

Next, to work on gaining control of the baritone, what you'll have to do is practice long tones. I have an exercise on my website called Pivot Around Middle C that I have used with my students for years. If done the way it is described on the sheet, and practiced faithfully everyday, it will help you gain control.

The exercise works on slurs over the range of the horn. After you've become proficient on that, you begin to work on the crescendos, and decrescendos over the full range as well. This exercise won't take hours. In fact, it will take approximately 5 minutes a day, per horn. So do it on alto, do it on bari, and whatever other sax you might play. It will help you develop your intonation as well. You might try and play this exercise with a tuner.

You can find the exercise on the Student Resources Page of my site. It's listed under Advancing Students. Look for Pivot Around Middle C. It is a PDF file, so you will need a PDF Reader like Adobe Acrobat.

As I said, I've used this with my students for years, and it improves their dynamic control, tone, and intonation dramatically.

Try this for a couple of weeks, and then let me know how you're doing. If you have any problems reading my hand writing (printing) on the top of the exercise, let me know, and I'll post the text here.

I'll let someone else tackle the breathing issue. But that too is something you're going to have to work on.
 
An intermediate player myself, my instructors are all ways hounding me to push more air through the horn. Note, that does not mean playing louder. Sometimes I'm so frustrated with the exercise, but my tone as increased marketedly since that effort started.

Most beginning to intermediate players don't push enough air through their instruments. Like you've mentioned, it really shows up between C and D but is also evident in octave jumps such as from A to A in the chalemeau (low) to clarion (middle) range of your instruments. But it can also manifest itself in the lack of good overtones that is critical to the creation of a great sound.

Have you read 'Top Tones' or The Art of Saxophone Playing, for a starter? Are you taking lessons?
 
Also note that Layne -- I mean, Helen -- plays a horn that's bigger than a bari, so she knows of what she speaks!

Regarding the C to D jump, note that :TrebleClef::Space3: can be fingered the same as :TrebleClef::Line0:: all you have to do is press the octave key. (Yes, I know that that fingering has some tone and intonation issues. Bear with me.) If you're using this fingering OR if you're going down from, say, D to C and don't have any problems, chances are extremely good that there's no problem with the horn, it's with your technique.

Helen mentions that C to D is a "break" on the sax. Similarly, the clarinet has a break from A to B: :TrebleClef::Line3: is a totally different fingering than :TrebleClef::spaceb:. Many folks, including me -- when I was learning to play -- have a psychological "break" when jumping these fingerings and (unconsciously) take a gulp of air right before the "break" and then release that gulp of air on the "break" note, thus making that "break" note out of tune or muffled sounding.

I think it's possible that both of your problems are related: you might be doing the things I describe above and it's also possible that you're using the incorrect mouthpiece with too hard a reed -- or you've got a chewed-up reed and/or your ligature is positioned incorrectly. You've got a lot of variables!
 
First of all, thank you all for such a quick response.

To give you more information about what I'm playing, I'm using the school's bari, which is a Conn of some type. It doesn't have any problems with leakage as far as I know, but the high F lever has fallen off (just means I can't play the note, the seal on the hole is still tight).

I don't know what kind of mouthpiece I use, but it is not the stock Conn one and it was in the bari case. I use a #3 Alexander Superial New York reed.

My plan is to work on long tones, work on the Pivot Around Middle C (which looks great, btw, thanks Helen), and play some of my alto pieces that are a little more challenging and demanding than my bari pieces are.
 
... my instructors are all ways hounding me to push more air through the horn. Note, that does not mean playing louder. Sometimes I'm so frustrated with the exercise, but my tone as increased marketedly since that effort started.

That's a really important point Gandalfe. It takes just as much, if not more air, to play softly, than it does to play loudly.

The trick is of course how you use your lungs to their full capacity, and how you use your intercostal muscles, and your diaphragm.

WF member and Woodwind Instructor at Delta State University, Bret Pimentel, wrote an article in his blog a year or so ago about breath support, in which he gave the best definition of it I have ever read. He simply said:

Breath support is the engagement of the abdominal muscles (including the sides and lower back) during exhalation.

I found being an established bari player really helped me when I first started playing bass. Now that I'm a bass player, I find anything smaller than a tenor too easy. I forget to breathe, and end up having to take breaths at the most inopportune of moments sometimes if I'm not careful. :oops:
 
Agreed on all that, thought I hadposted earlier but apparently not

Going with what Helen said, I primarily play bari and soon to be bass, and whenever I'm playing something smaller than tenor I find myself having to exhale before I can inhale... Run out of O2 before I run out of air.

Make sure your horn is leak free though, my high F pad has started to leak GRRR, and it makes everything damn near impossible to play.
 
A hesitation going from C to D can also be caused by uncoordinated fingers that do not close all the keys (pads) at exactly the same time. Fingering without blowing allows the player to concentrate on exactly what the fingers are doing (or are not doing). For many players the LH 3 is the "lazy" (late) one to close its key.

A couple more tips I learned from years of teaching are to:

-"blow into" the note(s) that add more fingers.
-mentally play the "D" while you are fingering the "C" and THEN slur to the fingered "D"
this works because the throat and airstream are already set for that note when it starts
 
A couple more tips I learned from years of teaching are to:

-"blow into" the note(s) that add more fingers.
-mentally play the "D" while you are fingering the "C" and THEN slur to the fingered "D"
this works because the throat and airstream are already set for that note when it starts

Interesting concepts jbt. I'd love to hear you explain them in detail. Unfortunately this type of medium has serious limitations. That's why it's not a replacement for a good, real live teacher.
 
Let me weigh in here with a few thoughts.

First, with a school horn, if it is at all possible, get the use of the horn restricted to you and you alone. I know that it's hard with large instruments (which are usually only had in limited numbers), but if you can keep other people away from the thing, you have a decent chance to keep it undamaged and in regulation.

School baritones are among the worst instruments of all to keep leak tight and functional. (Although tubas are larger, there are fewer ways to damage the mechanism.) And, if the horn leaves your custody for even an hour, someone without a vested interest in the thing will bash up the low C cut or the long keys on the bell.

(Bass clarinets are even worse. One encounter with a chair edge can nudge a saucer pad on the lower joint, and there goes both your ability to play low notes and to play over the break. Bummer.)

Mind you, you can play a baritone without functional lower keys, but the technique is somewhat "limiting", if you know what I mean.

In the golden days of my youth, when I was foolish enough to take on private students (almost all on bass clarinet - I had a "reputation" throughout southern IL, and they came to me from far afield), I would first ensure that the student was serious about playing. If that was so, then next I would negotiate with the school for an exclusive instrument for the young lady (most of my students were of the feminine variety - weak girl clarinet players get assigned to bass clarinet all of the time). If that was not possible (and it was only possible in about half of the districts), I then strongly urged the parents to purchase a Vito or Bundy horn for their child.

Once this was all in place, the players literally "bloomed" on the instrument. No more squeaking or squealing - little girl fingers which could not seal the lower chimneys on the soprano clarinet were suddenly transformed into powerhouses on the bass, where pads did all of the hard work. The horns "got out of the way", and students were no longer frustrated with their horns.

By the end of the first year, students who were positive about the playing experience were playing out of the intermediate or advanced clarinet (not bass clarinet) method books, ranging well above high C with perfect facility.

I am convinced that this is the only way to go on a harmony instrument. It might cost some bux up front, but if the student is committed, it works like a charm.

Now, as to breathing. As a low instrument musician, you routinely have to move more air through the horn. Even today, some forty five years (sigh) after I first picked up a sax, I still routinely mark breath points through music. Many is the time when I become distracted and ignore these little guideposts (too many low cut cocktail dresses on the dance floor), I find myself at the end of a critical phrase or hold, where the bass of the group is carried only by me and the bass trombone, with "half the air' that I need.

(Example: the Nelson Riddle arrangement of New York, New York, where the band comes to a screeching halt while the Chairman of the Board imitator gets loose and carefree with the "Theeeeese lit----tle towwwwwwn blues" entry. I generally steal a huge, hockey bench breath one bar before the held note, simply so I am sure that the two of us (bass bone and I) can carry it through.)

Leading into breathing here, I have always taught my students to use both the diaphragm and the "auxiliary muscles of respiration" to up their total "blow time". It's a trick I picked up from my juniors hockey coach, back before the dawn of time.

The diaphragm is the normal method that the human body learns to breathe. You "pull" the diaphragm (a large sheet of muscle - in a cow, it's the flank steak yum!) downwards, which in turn expands the bottom of the "chest cavity", causing a partial vacuum that draws air into your lungs.

The auxiliary muscles are the ones that are carried around your ribs. (Think spare rib meat - double yum!.) They work in a slightly different fashion, by pulling the rib cage open to the sides. This too creates a partial vacuum within the chest cavity, resulting in more air being brought into the lungs.

While we reflexively breathe with the diaphragm, even when knocked unconscious, you have to work to get the auxiliary muscles into the mix. The way to do this is to visualize "pulling" the rib cage open with the muscles on the sides. You may have to do this with the diaphragm fully pulled down at the same time - some can only do it that way at first.

Take the deepest breath that you can with your gut, and then - while holding that deep breath, breathe more with the side muscles. You can practice this at any time when you time to spare - my hockey kids were told to do it on the school bus, so as to keep them quiet, but any spare time will do.

Once you master getting them into play, the next step is to practice breathing with them alone. It's hard to do at first (and it's not something you do when you are performing any physical activity), but with application, you will get to the point where you are able to breathe without moving the diaphragm.

Once you get to that point, you are ready to go. In hockey, you play for one or two minute shifts on the ice, followed by twice that amount of time sitting on the bench. After getting to the bench, deep breaths (combining both methods of breathing) are performed for thirty seconds or until the heart rate declines to normal levels, followed then by normal breathing. Works like a charm.

In music, it's a bit different. I generally only use the technique when playing extended exposed passages on the bass clarinet, baritone or bassoon, and it is seamless enough when sitting down so as to go unnoticed (except for the sweeping bass clarinet phrases that I can manage). It gives me enough air to "fill up" the big horns, and it allows for better intonation and playing of piano phrases, all without "circular breathing".

(You will also scare the hell out of the respiratory technician who gives you a spirometer test, the one where you blow in a tube to measure your lung capacity. Up to the point of my work retirement at age sixty, I regularly "blew" 110 - 115% of the predicted capacity, where norms were in the 80% to 90% range. I told my mother that playing bass instruments and playing hockey all those years was good for something.)

The last hint that I can offer is to always spend part of each practice session practicing one level above what you are playing. As with the bass clarinet, baritone saxophone technique is not that different from the soprano/alto horns. If the horn is in good repair (and God alone knows what all is wrong with your Conn), you should not just practice method materials or ensemble parts for that instrument. Instead, "push" yourself to play alto or soprano lines as a regular part of your practice routine.
 
Wow SOTSDO, those are quite a few thoughts, and I was luckily able to identify with many of them. I used to play hockey, for one, and I have understood exclusive rights on the bari (small band).

I tried going through and practicing yesterday, and it sounded terrible to me. When I finished, I decided to go through with ol' dollar bill trick and clean the pads, and some of them are definitely out of place (high F for sure). The problem is that I don't think I have enough time to get it repaired by the Christmas concert. I'll try and talk to my band director today (we have a parade) and see what happens.

Thanks for all the help.
 
That was really great Terry. It was perhaps the best description of breathing technique that I have ever read on the 'Net. Well done!
 
Elastics can be your friend on that high F key. I found out mine was leaking real bad in a rehearsal and just threw an elastic up there and it kept it down. Grants you lose your high F, but that isn't used on a bari on very often
 
I agree. That is a great breathing description. As for the phrases "blow through the horn" or "move air through the horn", I used both for years in my teaching to good effect.

However, when I retired from public school teaching and started to study acoustics I learned that the air itself does not travel through the instrument to any appreciable degree---it is the soundwave that travels through the air inside the instrument.

This is an excerpt from brass clinic given by Renold Schilke: http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Brass Clinic.html

I put this as a question one time when I was giving a clinic to some bandmasters after listening to various remarks made by them about air having to go through the horn. I asked, "Is it necessary in the production of sound for the air to carry the sound through the horn?" I had hands by people in the affirmative that it was. To prove my point, I had a tuba player come up on the stage and had him blow some smoke into his tuba and begin to play. He played over a minute before some smoke finally began to t[r]ickle out the bell of the instrument. So, it is necessary to have air in the instrument so the player can establish the nodal pattern. It is not necessary for that air to move through the instrument any more than an energy impulse created by dropping a stone in water causes the water to actually move. What happens is, the energy impulse travels along lifting and depressing the water in its particular area ad infinitum. This is true of musical sound in relation to air. The sound leaves the instrument and keeps on traveling in the same manner.

This is not to say that I would not still use the concept of "blowing through the instrument" to help to teach proper breath support. However, it would be more accurate to tell the student to "feel as if" he/she were blowing the air through the instrument.
 
I agree. That is a great breathing description. As for the phrases "blow through the horn" or "move air through the horn", I used both for years in my teaching to good effect.

However, when I retired from public school teaching and started to study acoustics I learned that the air itself does not travel through the instrument to any appreciable degree---it is the soundwave that travels through the air inside the instrument.

This is an excerpt from brass clinic given by Renold Schilke: http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Brass Clinic.html

I put this as a question one time when I was giving a clinic to some bandmasters after listening to various remarks made by them about air having to go through the horn. I asked, "Is it necessary in the production of sound for the air to carry the sound through the horn?" I had hands by people in the affirmative that it was. To prove my point, I had a tuba player come up on the stage and had him blow some smoke into his tuba and begin to play. He played over a minute before some smoke finally began to t[r]ickle out the bell of the instrument. So, it is necessary to have air in the instrument so the player can establish the nodal pattern. It is not necessary for that air to move through the instrument any more than an energy impulse created by dropping a stone in water causes the water to actually move. What happens is, the energy impulse travels along lifting and depressing the water in its particular area ad infinitum. This is true of musical sound in relation to air. The sound leaves the instrument and keeps on traveling in the same manner.

This is not to say that I would not still use the concept of "blowing through the instrument" to help to teach proper breath support. However, it would be more accurate to tell the student to "feel as if" he/she were blowing the air through the instrument.

I think that it's half and half. I used to drink a lot of carbonated beverages (pre-diabetic - always thirsty, in the days before bottled water). Lots of Coke in your gut equals a tendency to burp out the excess CO2 as it builds up.

Playing a clarinet (with a narrower bore) while burping immediately puts the horn flat. The effect of the heavier than air laden with CO2 (which is heavier than normal "air" apparently damps things down for a while.

The effect goes away in a few seconds, so the burst of CO2 loaded "air" is moving somewhere during that period. The effect is easy enough to test, and you can do it without smoking...
 
There are two kinds of people - those who play hockey, and those who should be playing hockey...

I wish I was still playing hockey.

Well, my band director is going to take the bari to get a tune-up after the parade tomorrow. I can guarantee that it's its first in three years, but most likely it's been longer.
 
• Drop in sessions are held all year round down here in Texas, so folks anywhere else should be able to find something.

• Used equipment is dirt cheap at places like Second Hand Sports

• Wishing doesn't accomplish anything

While you might end up playing hockey at 11:30 PM on a weeknight, you can do it for about as much as a night of league bowling costs. And, you get a lot more exercise...
 
• Drop in sessions are held all year round down here in Texas, so folks anywhere else should be able to find something.

• Used equipment is dirt cheap at places like Second Hand Sports

• Wishing doesn't accomplish anything

While you might end up playing hockey at 11:30 PM on a weeknight, you can do it for about as much as a night of league bowling costs. And, you get a lot more exercise...

Where I live, the nearest rink is an hour away.
 
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