Basic Recording

Steve

Steve

Clarinet CE/Moderator
Staff member
CE/Moderator
ok .. several years ago I bought a nice digital recorder. had alot of bells & whistles and stuff like that and a builtin condenser microphone. I also have one of those little handheld micro digital recorders.

When I used either of them, and I usually place them 5 feet behind me, I can hear breathes, some articulation and sometimes keywork noise. Stuff that I cannot hear myself. and no, I don't think i need to get my ears checked and a hearing aid !!

also the dynamics I hear, are not as evident in the recordings.

what "evolution" per say, would help in understanding how to record better ??

I don't want to spend a thousand dollars for great recording equipment but I want to eliminate alot of the noise.
 
SteveSklar said:
ok .. several years ago I bought a nice digital recorder. had alot of bells & whistles and stuff like that and a builtin condenser microphone. I also have one of those little handheld micro digital recorders.

When I used either of them, and I usually place them 5 feet behind me, I can hear breathes, some articulation and sometimes keywork noise. Stuff that I cannot hear myself. and no, I don't think i need to get my ears checked and a hearing aid !!

also the dynamics I hear, are not as evident in the recordings.

what "evolution" per say, would help in understanding how to record better ??

I don't want to spend a thousand dollars for great recording equipment but I want to eliminate alot of the noise.
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IMO the main culprit is the ALC (automatic level control) of those beasties. Soft noise will be amplified while strong noise will be attenuated. With the result that the dynamics are a lot flatter, and you hear yourself breathe.

Whatever your setup, first thing to check is that the recording level is set to MANUAL. If your equipment doesn't allow this, well, you're short of luck.
 
Face the mic towards the bell and away from the keys like this...

oboe.jpg
 
SteveSklar said:
the built in mic - so I should place it on the floor ?

and with the sax i should place it on the ceiling ?? (haha)
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No, you want the center of the pickup pattern (polar patten) to be at the point of the best sound (the sweet spot) from the source. That's usually just a couple feet away from the mic. Like the photo above, you want ideally a 45 degree angle with you facing the mic and the mic facing the bell. Less key noise should come through if it's the most far away from the mic. A cardioid mic is best with woodwinds so it picks up the sound at the source without as many reflections in the room. If the mic on your Zoom is omni directional, it'll pick up reflections from all over the room.

Try this trick... Use a music stand with a solid backing (or with your music book) to hold the recorder out in front of the bell. Any reflections from the stand will also be picked up with the mic. Any reflections from the wall behind the stand you're facing will be blocked from being picked up with the mic.

You don't need expensive stuff. Just experiment and you'll find good results.
 
last night i put the mini recorder in a drawer and tried it that way.

last night was the first time in months i felt good enough to actually play (due to family matters) and not stumble all over my fingering and sound halfway decent with good air support and embouchure control.

this is excerpts from the mozart concerto 1st and 3rd movement and what I ended up with
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/steve/rec1.wma
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/steve/rec2.wma

but the dynamics were washed out a bit. i also was practicing with air articulation only in some spots. But I have been trying different locations.

i was curious whether i should actually add a microphone .. maybe find a good, albeit inexpensive one .. any recommendations ?
 
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SteveSklar said:
last night was the first time in months i felt good enough to actually play (due to family matters) and not stumble all over my fingering and sound halfway decent with good air support and embouchure control.
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<Kermit>Applause! Applause</Kermit>

Self-recordings are always a (bad) reality check for me. Reminds me what a mediocre musician I am. I bet that with some sophisticated post-processing a lot can be improved and I think that we're spoiled with all those master CDs out there.
Anyhow, I have bought a simple dynamic microphone (something like this) with a long cord. I simply hang the mike on its cord onto the music stand (poor man's boom mike) and get going. If you have PC somewhere nearby, you might want to try that plus Audacity (free) which does a very decent job with basic editing. So with an investment of say 40$ you can experimet a lot...
 
tjontheroad said:
The Swiss Army Knife of all microphones is the Shure SM57 that typically cost about 100 bucks. You can't go wrong with one and it should do better than any built in mic.

SM57.jpg
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Yepper that's the recommendation I got from a number of sources. I have two of them for my pickup band. They work nice and I'll be using one with the bass sax this Xmas.
 
i made two recordings last night

one with the Zoom MRS8 on the stand,and one with it behind the stand a couple feet

unfortunately the metronome thing went on for a couple minutes so the recording was short in both times .. guess i have to read the instructions again

but on the stand there was alot of keywork noise, breathing, etc all

behind the stand the keywork noise was not there but i could still hear the breathing (and i know i don't breathe loudly either !!) maybe it echos through the clarinet ?

So i'm going to experiment some more - but i did alot of that when i initially got the recorder. I might just jump and get a microphone or borrow a smaller H4 unit and see how that works in comparison
 
Hi Steve

I thought the sound of the recordings wasn't that bad. OK, maybe it didn't sound like a good quality professional recording, but how are you trying to make them sound? I was recorded sometimes with a small portable device, even to mp3, and it sounded pretty good. I think the microphone and the placement are important, and also the acoustics of the room (maybe even more). I think all that and a lot more can cause things like your breathing, etc. to be heard. On many professional recordings you can hear the breathing too (especially some rock/pop singers).

I'm not sure your recordings are the best examples if you want to check your recording equipment. For example, and I hope you don't mind me being up front, why did you play the third movement so fast? It was so fast and messy that you barely notice the recording quality, which actually doesn't sound especially bad. I didn't even notice your breaths at first because of that. I would record it at least twice as slow if I were you.

If you are buying a better microphone, remember that some microphones will need phantom power, or won't be able to connect imediately to your computer (would need an audio card, or preamp, for example). If I remember right, a few years ago someone used this microphone http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ECM-MS95...&s=musical-instruments&qid=1224592996&sr=1-10 to record a concert to minidisk and it sounded pretty good. Maybe it was a different mic but it was Sony anyway.

The location is important. You can listen to the last two tracks on www.myspace.com/nitailevi The first one 'Improvisation' was recorded with a built in mic on a small recording device, about a meter away from me, on a chair. The last one 'BCSolo' was recorded with a much better small recording device, with a better microrphone, about five meters away, on a floor or a chair. Both recorded straight to mp3.

So what I would reocmmend is first of all, do you have a more open space in your house to record? Start there. Then try various positions of the microphones, from near you on the floor to meters away from you. Play something slow (I would start with something like several slow notes in different registers and a slow melody) and play it the best you can, with your best sound, articulation, etc. Consider buying a better microphone.

In your example recordings your sound is mostly good, but the recording is ruined by messy playing, less than great microphone (maybe) and a dead room (probably). I don't know the recordering device you use so I can't help with that. FWIW, my all time worst recording sound-wise was done in one of the (supposedly) best studios in the country, with a (supposedly) especially good sound engineer, with ridiculously expensive Neumann microphones. In that case, it was the room (dead) and position of the microphones (too close) that ruined it.

Nitai
 
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SteveSklar said:
I was looking at these on WWBW.com
and noticed the prices keep going up, and up, and up

but the SM57 is descriped for musical instruments whereas the other ones for voice
Click to expand...

You may want to have a look into the PG57 which is the budget version of the SM57 at 40% less...
 
Natai,

yes it was messy but i just PM'd you on my situation .. and this was the first time i've really played i months where there was a slight connection between brain, notes and fingers. I used to be good ... have to get back up to practicing and getting things synchronized again.

FYI, last night i played it at tempo - and yes, alot cleaner. i also played a bunch of mozart and bach duets stuff, of course by myself

the room is just a regular bedroom with a carpeted floor. maybe 10x12 feet

i'm after getting rid of keywork noise - and yes, none of the keywork has any metal to metal contacts. and breathing noise if possible. I know the better the microphone , recording device, person with knowledge recording makes all the difference in the world.

just trying to get the best bang for the buck !!
and a little recording knowledge too. just have to turn off that darn built in metronome in the MRS-8 !!
 
Thanks for your PM, and by the way, my name is actually Nitai :)

I wasn't really criticising your playing. I was only suggesting to play it much slower, or maybe something else completely, because you want to test other things. For the purpose you are making the samples, I think that would help more.

Actually, there wasn't much key noise at all. I can hear your breathing a little but really it isn't too loud, and many times hearing breaths isn't a bad thing. I don't know how your recording device is, but it sounds like a better microphone, maybe further away from the clarinet (try different heights), in maybe better acoustics (maybe if you have something like a living room it is bigger and sounds better?), would probably help a lot. Your keys and breaths are not a big deal IMO, but for example you can hear the very trebly low notes which assuming you don't actually sound that way, is an obvious sign of the problems I mentioned.

By the way, near the end of the third movement sample (about 0:56) you play a very nice blues phrase :)

Nitai
 
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