Bundy?

geauxsax said:
My Bundy II sounds pretty decent IMHO, is mouthpiece friendly, and has great intonation. No, it's not the end-all, beat all, and the Kessler is probably the better bet for several reasons, but concerning the Bundy II:

Don't they have a True Tone body tube essentially? If so, why wouldn't they sound OK? Yes--the keywork is different, in what I guess was an attempt to improve things (??). I found a post on another site, purportedly from Ralph Morgan concerning, and discussed it here:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=99925&highlight=bundy+morgan
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My problem with the Bundy II is not its tone, but it's mechanics. Every one I've ever seen just had too many mechanical problems comapred with Yamaha student models and the new decent Asian models. The tone is a different subject and very subjective. I wouldn't say the Bundy II has a bad tone but I don't like it compared with the other saxes I mentioned. As far as being the same as the Buescher, it's possible I have no idea. I've never played a True Tone alto, only tenors, and I don't remember what I thought of it. I never compared it next to a Bundy to say if they are similar or not. But if they are the same, then I guess it's very possible that I won't like the tone of a True Tone alto.
 
For those of us who are 40+,
If you can remember that far back, Bundy was our Yamaha.
I wonder if old players back then had this same discussion...
 
Nitai: You deserve to play a real TrueTone alto from the 1920's. Of the seven altos I currently have in my closet, my TT (with the button G#, meaning it is OLD) has the best tone, at least to my ears. DAVE
 
I seem to recall that Bundy clarinets, at least back when I worried about such things with students, were handicapped with a "molded" bore, as opposed to the reamed to dimension bore of the otherwise similar Vito horns from Leblanc. But, that was all a long time ago (1980's or so).
 
geauxsax said:
My Bundy II sounds pretty decent IMHO, is mouthpiece friendly, and has great intonation. No, it's not the end-all, beat all, and the Kessler is probably the better bet for several reasons, but concerning the Bundy II:

Don't they have a True Tone body tube essentially? If so, why wouldn't they sound OK? Yes--the keywork is different, in what I guess was an attempt to improve things (??). I found a post on another site, purportedly from Ralph Morgan concerning, and discussed it here:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=99925&highlight=bundy+morgan
Click to expand...
(BTB, your Morgan quote is from http://www.saxquest.com/forumThreadView.asp?ForumUID=12&ThreadUID=10405)

I was under the impression, like the other posters in that thread you mention, that the Bundy II is an (d)evolution of the Buescher Aristocrat, not the True Tone. Indeed, there are a lot more points of comparison with the Aristocrat than the True Tone.

Rascher didn't play a TT. He played a New Aristocrat, in the sn 267xxx range, according to http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=180106&postcount=9 and http://forum.saxontheweb.net/archive/index.php/t-4117.html. However, if you look at this Buescher promo video and fast-forward to 4:21, you'll see Rascher's playing a horn with the traditional behind-the-bell keys of the 400.

Rascher was a promoter of Buescher's horns. I see no reason to say that he "had" to play one over another. Indeed, most of the still pictures I've seen of him are with a split-bell-key horn, which the New Aristocrat and True Tone both are, but I'm fairly positive he played ... whatever he wanted from Buescher. Except for the contrabass: Buescher didn't make 'em. The pictures I've seen of the contras Rascher played suggest Evette-Schaeffer.

If you want to stretch it, the New Aristocrat is an evolution of the True Tone design, and then it evolved through at least 6 Aristocrat designs before becoming the Aristocrat 200, which is identical to the original Selmer Bundy (except in engraving), which then became the Bundy II.

In any event, the Bundy II is a good horn because it could be run over with a tank and still play fairly well in tune. And hitting it with a tank might make the keywork more comfortable to play. The Bundy II is outclassed by the Yamaha 23 in every way, EXCEPT in ruggedness.

Again, the Bundys stamped "Made in Germany" are a completely different animal and are made by Keilwerth. Bundys made prior to about 1967 or so are Conn or Buescher stencils.

Selmer history from Ralph Morgan.

I've spoken, a long while ago, with Mr. Morgan. Nice guy, but I think some of the details of specific saxophones might have been a little off. Unfortunately, he passed away in 2007, so we really can't clarify things.

In any event, even if the Bundy II was based on the Selmer Mark VI, it doesn't play anywhere near as good. It is what it is: an inexpensive student horn that's built to take a beating. It's no longer produced, but you can still buy used ones. I, however, would recommend the YAS-23 for beginners, particularly because you can get them inexpensively, used. The Kessler Custom alto is currently priced at $700 and people have said they're decent horns (specifically the Customs). If I had to get new, I might take a chance on it -- but I know folks that'd sell me a YAS-23 a lot cheaper :).
 
pete said:
In any event, even if the Bundy II was based on the Selmer Mark VI, it doesn't play anywhere near as good. It is what it is: an inexpensive student horn that's built to take a beating. It's no longer produced, but you can still buy used ones. I, however, would recommend the YAS-23 for beginners, particularly because you can get them inexpensively, used. The Kessler Custom alto is currently priced at $700 and people have said they're decent horns (specifically the Customs). If I had to get new, I might take a chance on it -- but I know folks that'd sell me a YAS-23 a lot cheaper :).
Click to expand...


I don't dispute any of this, Pete. I'll say it again--the Kessler, etc is probably thge better bet here. You're absolutely right about the Bundy being an inexpensive student horn built to take a beating. Another good point made by more than one is that they're not made new anymore anyway.

My only counterpoint about Bundy IIs is that the examples folks usually see are usually beat to hell, badly adjusted, and/or played with crappy mouthpieces, chipped reeds, etc (if by a novice). A well-adjusted model with a good mouthpiece plays fine, both with regards to tone, intonation, and mechanics. Bottom line, I still think they're better than they get credit for if given a fair chance.
 
When I started playing sax, I was given a beat-up Buescher 400 bari (just about Selmer take-over vintage) and it was "recommended" to me that I get an alto in better shape to take to lessons, etc. I happened to be friends with a local dealer and asked him if he had any student horns in stock that were exceptionally cheap: he had a demo model Bundy II alto that had been smacked into a stand, so the bell lip had a dent. That was it. I think I paid something like $250 for it. Mid-1980s, so it was probably old stock.

So, my first alto was a Bundy II. (Thankfully, the school then replaced the Buescher bari with a NEW Bundy and I then bought my Keilwerth Bundy and, eventually, a YBS-52.)

Since then, I have played a number of Buescher Aristocrat 200s, Bundy, Bundy II, and Selmer USA student horns in a variety of pitches. I liked the fact that they could take a beating. I thought that they were a bit resistant and didn't exactly have a tone to write home about, but they could take a beating. There is something to be said for that. However, I do think that a YAS-23 is a considerably superior horn in every respect except ruggedness. I also grant you that if you had to go new, I haven't heard a problem with the Kessler Custom, but I still haven't tested one (yes, I've e-mailed Dave a few times).

You're absolutely right: if you have a junky mouthpiece with junky reeds, the world's best horn isn't going to make you sound any better. Check out our other threads on the topics:

Mouthpieces for beginners
Ligatures

We don't have a specific thread for reeds for beginners, so maybe I'll start one ....
 
It's a step up from the 23.
 
The 475 is Yamaha's step-up or intermediate horn. It has the fully tilting left hand spatula, adjustable bumpers, high F#, and low B to C# closing adjustment---features that are not found on the YAS 23 student model.

John
 
There are other "non-catalogue" important differences between Yamaha models and these related to build quality. Main one being loose stack rods inside posts. This can really interfere with accuracy of some adjustments. Another is non-level tone holes, which is sometimes ok and sometimes very bad on their student models, though never great on any that I've seen. Another difference, not so significant though, is headless pivot screws which after many years can become loose.

Specifically the first reason is why it is harder for me to recommend student Yamahas now when some cheaper Chinese and especially Taiwanese saxophones sometimes don't have this problem at all (and sometime much less). Still the problems of the student Yamahas are IMO very mild compared with Bundy II, or the really cheap and nasty Chinse saxophones which are terrible.

I've only seen one YAS-475 and it didn't have the main problem of the student models with the loose rods. Also for those who like Yamahas the tone of the student model is great. The 475 felt similar just "more". Same with the pro models IMO comapred with intermedaite, etc.
 
23 vs 475

Carl, John and Clarni,
Thanks for the info. My 475 has indeed a nice and rather warm tone with efficient machanism.
J
 
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