CE Winds

rleitch

Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Code: 
Pete here.  Sorry to interrupt.

This thread has some posts copied and/or split from
http://woodwindforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2685

Enjoy!

"To each his own" is always trump, of course.

I think the interesting issue beyond that is something like how much and what kind of value a US distributor can add to a horn manufactured in Asia.

In Business 101 terms, this question would be analyzed using the four different forms of "utility": time utility, place utility, ownership or possession utility, and form utility.

Ironically, it seems that some brands could lose out in the time and place utility derby precisely because they sell through retailers which, in many cases, can't or won't keep them in stock.

Also ironically, whereas brands like CB and PM have to work very hard to prove that their products confer real form utility--eg resonance stones--because they cost more, the CE Woodwinds type operation can just sit back and capitalize on that hard work. Check out CE Woodwinds' rhetoric: "by all means buy a Selmer or a PM," he says, "if you can afford one, but if you can't we're almost as good." As this thread seems to prove, the form utility argument is hard to win, once you make your customers aware of the conditions of production in Taiwan, which you need to do.

With respect to form, the big edge Barone has right now, IMHO, is the provision of a top notch mouthpiece. The neck thing, IMHO, is hype. Interestingly, Barone's erstwhile partner and current big competitor--Macsax--has struck a deal with Theo Wanne. It's not hard to see where this is coming from, but I'm not sure if folks who are looking for a $1400 sax are really going to be after a $700 mouthpiece?

That leaves possession utility and that's a marketing crapshoot: do you get more satisfaction from owning a more expensive PM horn, one with some high profile endorsers, or does "Baronership" float your boat. Perhaps most curiously, CE Woodwinds seems to use religious affiliation as a marketing tool.

Yadayadayada....

In my case, using the same analysis, the Martin wins hands down, except for some nagging doubts I have about the keywork. But that's another story...:)

Rory

ps: I'm not sure if this angle has been beaten to death, but one consideration that has been keeping my GAS at bay viz a Houli horn is the environmental footprint. My inner tree hugger keeps reminding me that buying a refurbished vintage horn doesn't harm the mother, whereas buying anything from Asia feeds the Leviathan.
 
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@ rleitch, I think Cannonball's biggest problem is that they don't list their prices online. From what I've seen, they're nice looking saxophones (and I'm pretty sure that the stones just look pretty). From what I've heard, people like CB's horns. From what I've researched, CB horns are inexpensive and cheaper than PM horns. Why not list a price? Hey, I've got enough horns that I KNOW the prices of to choose from, rather than havening to deal with the unknown.

I think the statement that some folks make, i.e., "All saxes from $country are junk!" is stupid. Your Yamaha 23 is now made in Indonesia and they're not junk horns. A lot of horns seem to be getting keywork from Vietnam. Hey, Buffet thinks that that Chinese concern they use is good enough to put their name on 'em. And a lot of people are saying how Taiwanese/Chinese horns are improving in quality.

I've always believed in the triumph of function over form: if it plays good, who cares where it's from? However I do know people that won't buy stuff from $country because of moral (as you point out) or other ("I ain't buyin' no Asian POS! We beat them in the War!") reasons.

(Even if, as Al points out, it's difficult to buy something that has 100% content from the US, UK, or wherever. Hey, I keep hearing that radio ad about, "Buy an American-made Ford!" They're mostly made in Canada. At least my Taurus has 80% Canadian manufacture, according to the sticker.)

I do remember the big flap on SOTW when Goodson brought out his post-Unison horns and the question about their country of origin. I think it had a point, as detailed above, but it was waaaay overblown.

As far as Barone is concerned, it would probably be quite compelling for some folks if there was a Barone horn with a Barone-designed neck and a Barone/Wanne-designed mouthpiece, even if it was a "step down mouthpiece". Hey, Goodson charges a good deal for his high-end tenors. Maybe that's the idea here. Might also be that there will be a step-down version of the neck and mouthpiece mated with an inexpensive Barone-labeled sax. That might also be compelling. Just not for me: I really don't think I'd like a Barone mouthpiece (I play a Rascher, y'know) and as long as the neck matches the sax, I'm happy. Again, I'd probably look for another YAS-61 on eBay than get any of these horns.

CE Woodwinds seems to use religious affiliation as a marketing tool.
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I didn't notice that. What are you referring to? I'm curious.
 
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also, Cannonball used to have religious icons on their website .. seems to be gone now. I've been a fan of CB for years back when the BigBells first came out - I really want to try a Vintage one of these days.

I don't recall any on CE Woodwinds but then i've only visited a few times and recently at that.
 
clarnibass said:
The only reason people compare the Taiwanese saxophones in this way is because of the rumors that they are the same.
Click to expand...

Man, I feel almost foolish arguing with you, since you know way way more about this stuff than I do, but I have to say this is completely wrong IMO.

My own interest in buying a Taiwanese sax has nothing to do with a belief, false or otherwise, that a Barone or CE Winds sax is identical to a PM. What it is based on, as I mentioned above, is on my having watched all of these saxes get consistently glowing reviews from knowledgeable players like Al for the last two years.

Moreover, since there is simply no chance that I would ever be able to do careful side by side comparison, the issue of whether the horns are identical is completely moot.

So: in my case, false comparisons with PMs are pretty much totally irrelevent!!!

That said, the only valid comparison between a Barone and a PM, again IMHO, is this: both are top quality Taiwanese horns and both would be more than good enough for a weekend warrior like me (and sadly, I'd still sound like me on both). However, the PM will cost me twice as much $ to buy and, more, would take about 6 months to get, compared to 6 weeks.

Peace,
Rory

ps. CE Woodwinds is emphatically a Christian company, starting with product names drawn expressly from the Book of Revelations! Many of the company's strong supporters online self-identify as Christian players, as do a number of their brand name endorsers. I have no point to make about this other than to note that it is an interesting way of adding ownership utility for some buyers, one which seems, to me, entirely honest and forthright.

viz

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=1113209&postcount=4
 
rleitch said:
ps. CE Woodwinds is emphatically a Christian company, starting with product names drawn expressly from the Book of Revelations! Many of the company's strong supporters online self-identify as Christian players, as do a number of their brand name endorsers. I have no point to make about this other than to note that it is an interesting way of adding ownership utility for some buyers, one which seems, to me, entirely honest and forthright.

viz

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=1113209&postcount=4
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Ah. I thought you were referring to the manufacturer of one of the other models listed. I hadn't looked at the CE Woodwinds website. However, their websites(s) seem to downplay religious affiliation.

1. I wonder how one is supposed to pronounce "Archaize".
2. I find it interesting that CE says that their "Alpha" tenor is "based on the Yamaha 82z", but the "Alpha" alto is "based on the Yamaha 475". The 475's an intermediate horn. The 82z is a custom pro horn. Hmmm.
3. I find it interesting that they feature a Cannonball on their Gallery page.
4. CE Winds says that they build their own horns ... or, at least, they strongly imply that. I don't see any mention of, "These horns are really made in China/Taiwan" on http://www.christopherelliottinc.com/aboutus.asp.
(All found at http://www.christopherelliottinc.com/)
 
pete said:
Ah. I thought you were referring to the manufacturer of one of the other models listed. I hadn't looked at the CE Woodwinds website. However, their websites(s) seem to downplay religious affiliation.

1. I wonder how one is supposed to pronounce "Archaize".
2. I find it interesting that CE says that their "Alpha" tenor is "based on the Yamaha 82z", but the "Alpha" alto is "based on the Yamaha 475". The 475's an intermediate horn. The 82z is a custom pro horn. Hmmm.
3. I find it interesting that they feature a Cannonball on their Gallery page.
4. CE Winds says that they build their own horns ... or, at least, they strongly imply that. I don't see any mention of, "These horns are really made in China/Taiwan" on http://www.christopherelliottinc.com/aboutus.asp.
(All found at http://www.christopherelliottinc.com/)
Click to expand...


Hey Pete,

I'll answer your questions (or statements) as best I can... sorry this is my first post, just read this thread and haven't read too much more, yet.

1) AR-KAZE

2) It's really not all that interesting, just the fact that our factory (not taking ownership of the factory by that statement just the exclusivity of their work with us as a US based company) builds for us a 475 stencil that we really like, and an 82z stencil that we really like, and that is how we refer to them. We could just put Yamaha because essentially the ergos are nearly identical between the two, something to think about (on our end). It is just the truth in the fact how they were presented to us, and it just stuck since we introduced these models in early 2008.

3) We also have several other brands of instruments there. Cannonball makes a beautiful sax, and we would be honored to one day be as esteemed as they are today. They essentially paved the way for companies like ours to exist, even though we maintain a different approach to customer relations and marketing, we share (I feel) in the idea that we just have a passion for doing this, and hope to also take more ownership and oversight into the manufacturing of our own products, much as they did over their many years of existence.

4) We are very open on who builds our horns, both publicly and privately (online and offline) and have never intentionally hidden the fact that our saxes are built where they are, both in China and Taiwan. As a matter of fact, each of our Pro Series instrument sales pages clearly state where the saxes are made, and all of our saxes are clearly marked (as of June 2009 due to discussions on another forum) with the country of origin. We don't see a lot of business from people who don't contact us first asking questions about our saxes, and the country of origin is always in the presentation of our brand. As a matter of fact, closing the 2009 year we discussed this as a company and recently drafted a new page telling more information about our company and brand. It is not web ready yet, more rough drafted, but I would be glad to share that with you or anyone for that matter.

We do, as a company, receive a lot of heat from ‘experts’ because we build and import a Chinese and Taiwanese product, however, we feel we modestly list our saxophones within the values and market we feel they fit within. We ARE very proud of our products, and it is always a safe assumption that ANY company could go belly up tomorrow, our intentions have never been or never will be, to just roll over, no matter what the situation, and just let the work and reputation we have built up to this point, just disappear. It’s easy for some people to just say “well you buy them at this price, then sell them at this price” without looking at the things done in between to make sure your reputation stays solid, as we feel for the most part, ours has.

We also have a supply of replacement parts, not everything, but we keep a good supply of things that would take care of what we needed to. I can honestly say this, that to this day, we have never taken a sax back in warranty because of defects, and we have only replaced a few lost screws for key guards, and one bell to body brace that was snapped by our own tech.

Our saxes stay in their proper adjustment (both Alpha and Pro Series), and we feel that over the last few years they have only gotten better, and will continue to do so as we work hand in hand with the craftspeople that build them (not factory workers).

Thanks for allowing me to post this, and for this public forum. I haven’t had a chance to look over the forum rules and the rest, but will very soon. I hope I can glean as much information here as I have on the other site…..

As far as our Beliefs, we will soon post those too on our (NEW - COMING SOON) site for all to read, if they choose to. We are not crazy, dogmatic, fanatics, necessarily; just have very strong beliefs on where our talent comes from, and Who gave them to us, and why we feel that way.

Brian
 
Something is still confusing to me. Do you "build" the saxophones that you sell? You have made that statement both here and on your website. Or do the factories in China and Taiwan actually build the instruments that you buy from them and market in the US? There is a big difference between the two.

John
 
jbtsax said:
Something is still confusing to me. Do you "build" the saxophones that you sell? You have made that statement both here and on your website. Or do the factories in China and Taiwan actually build the instruments that you buy from them and market in the US? There is a big difference between the two.

John
Click to expand...

Well, they don't build themselves.

I think you missed my obvious statement, that saying "we build" (as in CE Winds) does not mean that we have taken ownership of the companies that build our saxes, it is meaning only that we have a specific partnership with them, and a good business relationship with them that allows us to know we have input into the manufacturing and quality control.

It is more than an OEM relationship, if you will, that has me feeling comfortable with the wording we have chosen, but as I have said, our new "company mission" statement will clear the air much more than what I am saying here.

We are a growing, and learning business, so please don't try to discredit us because we use our words different.

Cannonball has been "building" saxophones for many years, even though they within the last few years bought their factory. Correct? I may not be, but from my research and understanding, that is also the wording they have used...

Or perhaps I could just be wrong, and believe me, it wouldn't be the first time, and advice and/or criticism given to help better us (personally and as a company) is not taken without hearing and always well received. However when used to discredit us, for whatever reason, is unnecessary. We love what we do, and do what we love.

Peace,

Brian
 
Hi, CE Winds! Happy to have you aboard!

================

Regarding "build", I actually do understand the point of what you're saying: you're telling factory X to build horns for you and you have some input on quality control, etc. Therefore, as a famous someone once said, it's true ... from a certain point of view.

However, I'd say that the majority of folks, when they hear the phrase, "We build these", think that y'all* have your own factory and make the horns yourself, from forming the brass to putting all the pieces together. That used to be the case, for most manufacturers.

Now take, for instance, the Keilwerth ST horns. They're not actually made by Keilwerth in any way, shape or form. They're Taiwanese. It's even stamped on the horn ("ROC" = "Republic of China" = "Taiwan").

However, I still think that it's a bit of marketing-speak and Keilwerth should say, very clearly, that they "have the horns built according to our specifications" (or some permutation of that phrase). Even then, that's a bit slippery: I see nothing that suggests that Keilwerth even designed the ST horns. I could be wrong, but my opinion is that if you're contracting another company to design and manufacture the instrument, you're not building it.

I've mentioned before that I really don't care WHERE my horn was made, as long as it's a good horn. However, I do know that some people do care for whatever reason (e.g. "I won't buy Gummi Bears from China because they exploit Gummis and make them work 40 hours a day!").

In my opinion (and using the definition), unless the horn is your specific DESIGN, you're just stenciling a horn. I might be able to buy the exact same horn with a different name on the bell from a different dealer, sometimes with a better warranty and/or with better service. Hey, when folks hear that the sax is made in China, Taiwan, Indonesia or Vietnam, they can assume that and be right in a lot of cases -- because it's true.

All that being said, I do agree with you, based on seeing hundreds of posts, that the build quality of the instruments coming out of China and Taiwan has improved dramatically. However, I still haven't found anyone that says that they'd part with their high-end pro vintage -- or new -- instrument from the "standard" manufacturers and replace it with a Taiwanese, Chinese, Vietnamese or Indonesian horn. I think that's what's missing: a killer Taiwanese horn that can blow away a Mark VI or even a Yamaha 82z.

I'd be more than happy to review one of your horns. If you want to PM or e-mail me, we can do that.

------------------

You commented about my quote, "I find it interesting that CE says that their 'Alpha' tenor is 'based on the Yamaha 82z', but the 'Alpha' alto is 'based on the Yamaha 475'." The reason I pointed this out is because you're saying that you have two pitches of instrument with the same model name "based on" two totally different instruments, one being a professional model and one being an intermediate model. Of course, you really can't "base" your horns on Yamahas because Yamaha would probably sue (patents and all), but you could easily argue that your keywork is similar to a Yamaha. Most instruments today do have Yamaha-esque keywork, which is similar to Selmer keywork. However, saying that an instrument is "based on" a Yamaha pro horn means, to me, that the horn "plays like" a Yamaha pro horn, not just "feels like". In other words, ergonomics don't make the horn, the sound, intonation and playability do.

Thank you for the pronunciation of "Archaize" :D. I actually did know the pronunciation -- English major (although I generally use British punctuation) -- and it's different than how y'all are pronouncing it, but that's ok. Hey, the folks that own Hyundai were once asked how to pronounce the name of their company replied, "We don't care how you pronounce it, as long as you buy one of our cars".

Finally, FWIW, if you're going to mention a "statement of beliefs" or similar on your website -- I think Cannonball does this, too (and I found their comments on whether they build their own horns or just contract them to be confusing, too: I think that they design them, but have other folks build them. As you mention, this may have changed; I dunno) -- there's really no reason to be shy about saying that y'all contract a company to design and build the horns for you. You're laying all your cards on the table and saying, "This is a product that we believe in. No marketing hype." If you're gonna go for full honesty, say that you're the only company selling these horns and no other company's selling 'em with a different name on the bell. **

==============

* I lived in Texas for 5 years. I've earned the right to use "y'all" in a sentence :p.
** I bet that someone will come along, in a post or two, and summarize my entire post into a pithy, short phrase. I hate those people :p :p :p.
 
To correct some misinformation given here, Cannonball does not "own" the factory that produces the saxophones in Taiwan since foreign ownership of property is prohibited. They are however business partners with the owner of the factory which makes saxophones exclusively for their company. They do own the molds and tooling used to make most of the components that go into their instruments.

Unlike those who just import "off the shelf" saxophones from Asia to mark up and sell under their "brand name", Cannonball from the very first saxophones has taken an active part in the acoustic design and creation of innovative features that distinguish their saxophones from the rest.

The word "build" means to construct or make something by combining materials and parts. Even though the Cannonball website uses this word only one time in the sentence "We hope, however that our faith helps us to build the best quality instruments we can while doing business in an ethical manner", it would be more accurate to say "we have the instruments built".
 
Hey Pete,



Very well spoken, and I sincerely do appreciate the time you took to write this post….

Some of the points you have made will in fact be made clearer in the new mission/vision statement, and I can see where the wording can confuse… I think one reason we wanted to revisit it was because I have heard a few times “where are your horns actually built” and/or “so you don't actually build the horns yourself”… so there was a bit of un-clarity with some people who have contacted us.

I was going to bring up the Keilwerth/Antigua/Buffet thing as well, because we have in the past had ‘associations’ with these factories. I understand more now because you have cleared it up for me, and these are the reasons we get involved in a public forum…. I remember when the “clearly mark country of origin” thread was going on, I read every single post, legal jargon, and outside comment regarding the matter, and we felt that we, as a company, needed to also be very clear, and began marking all of our saxes with the correct CoO. I saw on a business channel one time a slogan that intrigued me, and I will throw it out here looking for an opinion. Instead of “Made in China” for our Alpha series instruments, how about “Made with China” – would you (or anyone) feel that that is deception? We say Made in China, and they are essentially made in China, but we also have some post production work we do in order to make them play at a higher level when they arrive to us…. Not just, receive, and ship. Anyway, just a (young business) question… and the fact that I do spend a lot of time defending some Chinese made saxes, especially ours. I hate that I have to say to someone – “it’s made in China, but….”

I mean, we do have professionals that play for our company, who have replaced their horns (for the most part) with ours. Phil French sold all of his professional model Keilwerth saxes, Daniel G Klimoski sold all of his Selmer Paris saxes (Ref 54 Alto, Serie III Tenor) and his Yani curvie… for our saxes. John Michalak still has his Mark VI’s because he doesn't want to sell them, but primarily plays our saxes on all of his recordings and live gigs. He also has a Silver Keilwerth Alto that he recently played on a (CBS Early Show) gig with Gloria Estefan because they brought the other trailer (that had his altos in it), but he did have his CE Winds tenor on stage with him. I mean, these are a few that I can name, that are professionals (meaning don't play, don't eat) but not every day, household names... if that is what you are referring to. If Yamaha contacted any of our artists and said “We want you!!!” then I would humbly step aside and allow them to make their own choice, even being under contract with us.

I feel with all honestly, that our Alpha series instruments are suitable for professional use, because there are professionals worldwide playing them. I know of professionals playing YAS 23 and YTS 23’s, and they sound great on them… so essentially having a pro Yamaha, or student Yamaha, may (or may not be) all relative to the players skill set. Is there a real advantage to pro horns? If you’re good, you’re good…. Somewhere in there you can say, yes, they are better…. Again, the wording, because of this conversation, will be addressed.

Thank you again.
 
jbtsax said:
To correct some misinformation given here, Cannonball does not "own" the factory that produces the saxophones in Taiwan since foreign ownership of property is prohibited. They are however business partners with the owner of the factory which makes saxophones exclusively for their company. They do own the molds and tooling used to make most of the components that go into their instruments.

Unlike those who just import "off the shelf" saxophones from Asia to mark up and sell under their "brand name", Cannonball from the very first saxophones has taken an active part in the acoustic design and creation of innovative features that distinguish their saxophones from the rest.

The word "build" means to construct or make something by combining materials and parts. Even though the Cannonball website uses this word only one time in the sentence "We hope, however that our faith helps us to build the best quality instruments we can while doing business in an ethical manner", it would be more accurate to say "we have the instruments built".
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I understand about the 'ownership" issue as I remember (now) reading it in the other thread discussing the change they made, they do have their name on the building... and make that statement on their site... so I hope my point wasn't missed... I guess choosing our words correctly makes a big difference in reaching a point, here more so, than in the market (just kidding BTW). You say tomayto, I say tomahto.

We do (not to the degree of Cannonball) take an active part in the design and manufacturing, because we WILL NOT sell a sax that sounds bad, or is made bad, and we work diligently to make sure the factories that build our saxes understand the standards we expect, even if it costs more to make them, though we are not 'present' looking over their shoulder. If it looks bad, it has been addressed, if it sounds bad, it as been addressed. Recently when we had some baris built and we felt structurally that they could have been better, because they are within the price range of a student bari. It was a trial and error process, but we in the end ended up with a product we were happy with... that came from using the people around us to test and retest the concept to be sure it was fit for purchase. It was actually over a year of working with builders before a CE Winds saxes entered the market.

As I have stated before, we admire everything about the Cannonball company, however I feel we do appeal to a different market for different reasons, therefore we try not compare ourselves to them, or any other company.
 
CE Winds said:
I saw on a business channel one time a slogan that intrigued me, and I will throw it out here looking for an opinion. Instead of “Made in China” for our Alpha series instruments, how about “Made with China” – would you (or anyone) feel that that is deception? We say Made in China, and they are essentially made in China, but we also have some post production work we do in order to make them play at a higher level when they arrive to us…. Not just, receive, and ship.
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If what you do is simply regulate and adjust the keys and eliminate leaks and lost motion to make the instruments play at a "higher level" then I would say yes that is deceptive since you do not "make" anything, but adjust and repair something that is already made.

You may think this is just parsing words, but there continues to be a great deal of deception in the saxophone import market where marketing and advertising is concerned. My opinion is that it would serve your company well to choose your words carefully to set your company apart from those who intentionally obscure the truth in order to make their products appear more acceptable to the buying public.

Also "wearing your religion on your sleeve" has the potential to create some negative feedback from those customers who are turned off by this practice. I know this has been Cannonball's experience. My question to those vendors who choose to do this is "is it really worth it"?
 
jbtsax said:
"is it really worth it"?
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Is this allowed to be discussed here? Because I would love to.... but have been censored in other forums due to specific 'religion' rules.

I didn't read anything here, nor will I just throw out empty 'religious babble', just answer the questions, from our perspective.

Mods?
 
"We build..."

We are attaching too much significance to the meaning of "build" and neglecting the meaning of "we."

"We" is a plural pronoun. It means more than one entity.

In this context, "we" are the company itself and whoever fabricates and assembles the product. And whoever tweaks it and sets it up. And whoever packages and ships it. And whoever cuts the grass. And so on.

"We" means the entity that we the consumers know as CE Winds.

And who specifically owns the buildings and who specifically signs the paychecks of all those in the collective is irrelevant.

The CEO of Ford Motor Company has probably never had a tool in his hand, and his product is built mostly in Canada with many components from many other places, but I don't hear anyone correcting and criticizing him when he says about Ford, "We make good cars."

So, CE Winds, I find no fault in your wording. Consider the agendas of those who would criticize it, and don't worry about it. It's a polarizing debate and that's all it is. The moving of wind for the sake of the moving of wind. Long tones with no purpose. Most of these cats already have the horns they prefer and aren't going to buy or boycott anything based only on what is said here.

Just build a good product, stamp it however pleases you, stand behind it, and keep the stores, music teachers and students happy.

And you will do well, the economy allowing and the creek don't rise.
 
Sorry Al, but I can't agree with your Ford Motor Company analogy. The flaw in you logic is that "The Ford Motor Company" assembles the parts that are made to its specifications by other manufacturers. The vehicles may be assembled at the Ford Motor Company plant in Canada, but it is still a division of the Ford Motor Company.

If the Ford Motor Company were to order cars made by Nissan and had the Ford name put on them, that would be the equivalent of what CE Winds does. In that case it would be in error for the CEO of Ford to say "WE build those cars".

If I buy a new saxophone from Yamaha, do a professional set-up on it and advertise and resell it. I cannot honestly claim that "We" meaning the Yamaha Corporation and myself built that saxophone. That would be ridiculous.

John
 
CE Winds said:
Is this allowed to be discussed here? Because I would love to.... but have been censored in other forums due to specific 'religion' rules.

I didn't read anything here, nor will I just throw out empty 'religious babble', just answer the questions, from our perspective.

Mods?
Click to expand...

Please! My largely rhetorical question can be answered by a simple yes or no in your own mind. It is not an invitation to expound upon and defend your religious beliefs. There are more appropriate forums on which to do that.

John
 
I've got to say, I'm still loving the soprano Phil sold me about 7 years ago.

Can we split this thread so the title reflects the content?
 
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