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Chamber V Tip Opening

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Blackgold, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Any MP guru know if a small chamber generaly needs a larger tip opening.{for Alto}
    Thanks in Advance
  2. pete thomas

    pete thomas Distinguished Member Distinguished Member

    I'm not a guru, but i think the answer is no.

    It might be that a high(ish) baffle would often want a larg(ish) tip opening.

    It might be useful to give us some context behind the question, are you getting a mouthpiece refaced? Thinking of making your own?
  3. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    If you have a large tip opening (flat baffled or not) the tip opening is designed for a large air flow.

    You could have a small throat/chamber area

    But that is going to create a large resistance area right there.

    The airflow would get centered going into the neck. You would also lose alot of the feedback a player likes to get from the horn, as the main resistance area is now the mpc.

    But normally a large tip had a medium to large throat/chamber area to accommodate the higher air flow.

    If you look at Selmer LT (Larry Teal) designs you will get a small tip and small chamber area. I have a customized LT (tenor) which is a larger tip which gives me the playing performance of a LT but with easier dynamics. But it's not a "large tip" just "larger" than the normal LTs

    I'm sure there are exceptions though as I haven't seen every mpc on the market or anything close to that for alto sax.

    airflow can be increased too by a variety of methods. For example look at a Selmer metal jazz mpc. You get a full length beak baffle but not a step baffle. This really improves the speed of the airflow and the cutting ability of the mpc (in my experiences with them - but mostly tenor). I had one for myself for alto once and I could swear I could peel paint with it on my alto.
  4. The MP concerned is a Vandoren V16 A7 small chamber. which was listed on ebay prior to the start of the thread. The A7 shows a tip opening of 80 and i heard somewhere that the small chamber would give the effect of a smaller tip opening, perhaps a JJ M5 OR 6. which i am using for the moment.
    What would be the purpose of a small chambered MP if there would be less feedback from the sax itself
  5. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    with that design I would guess it has a good projection & focus (small chamber) and edge to the tone plus easier dynamics (larger tip). So a good lead mpc and such. is it metal or HR ?

    I've grown to want more feedback, resistance-wise, from an instrument. So it probably would not suit me from the description.

    I did at one time have the Vandoren metal T75 which was very nice though too bright for my tastes.
  6. Its a HR. so it would it have basically more resistance, and so a thinner more penetrating type of timbre, perhaps more clarinet like, do you think.
    I have been experimenting with lots of Alto MPs this last six months, and hope to find something close to what i am after so i willbe better prepared to have Edd Pillinger make one up in Bronzite.

    PS. I have a polycarbonate SR Tech Legend that starts with a good resistance from the instrument and a very nice sound and feel about it, free blowing,articulation very smooth, but as it warms upit seems to lose a lot of the resistance.NoT sure if it is the material or the opening that is too open. using V16 no3.
  7. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    I would think a thinner timbre. Of course, playing it would answer all the questions !!

    What kind of reed do you use with the polycarbonate?
    sometimes reeds get waterlogged and resistance can be lost there.

    on alto clarinet i normally use an old Bundy HR piece.

    fyi, i keep confusing some sax mpcs with clarinet in the postings above.
    Is your V16 a alto clarinet mpc, or an alto sax mpc because now that I'm thinking of it I dont recall the V16 being an alto clarinet mpc .. every time I think V16 I think sax :/
  8. Yes V16 Alto Sax. Which should arrive on Mon. The Polycarbonate plays fine to start with, better, less edgy, fuller sound compared to the JJ 5m , and allows a solid timbre playing softly, and plays beautiful when pushed.
    After about 30mins the softer side of playing changes and the reed appears softer and more difficult to control, and when pushing the sound, it loses liveliness that was there initialy. I then go for the most obvious solution, and start changing reeds, but with the same result. The JJ on the other hand stays pretty much unchanged throughout. I can only think the larger tip opening on the SR Tech is the culprit. Primarily a Clarinetist i have had no MP problems with Soprano the, Yani MP that came with my S880 was fine and my present Edd Pillinger is fantastic, even when i am not too fussy about the reeds. I must admit i am looking to control the Alto, or my approach to the Alto is similar to how i approach the Sop and Clarinet, Perhaps a smallish tip opening is more suited.

    PS. I use Vandoren std 2 and half and 3 and V16 on both MPs.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
  9. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    On alto sax I normally play a standard Selmer S80 D mpc. I used to have 2 of these decades ago and this one has a larger square chamber.

    I also like the Selmer metal classical mpcs (on alto and tenor) for a little bit more power. On tenor I have too many mpcs.

    On softer reeds .. once they get waterlogged they lose everything .. can't push them at all.

    Do you know if you are pinching much with the reeds ?

    usually vandoren's don't really get waterlogged (for me). If one pinches it can bend the reed and make a small tip opening and you would have certain problems like a soggy reed.

    For soprano I use a larger tip opening too, but I have several mpcs. But normally a 3-1/2 reed or 3 vandoren blue box.

    clarinet, on a classical setup a 4 reed (M13, Chedeville), otherwise a 3-1/2 (such as a Vandy M13lyre, B45 etc)
  10. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    on another note, I've noticed on instruments that have weird things happen after 10 minutes ... old sax pads can absorb condensation. This makes them expand .. and create leaks.

    thought I would throw that out there too keep in mind depending how badly things go out of control.
  11. Yes ... You guessed right. Biting..It has taken me a couple of days to sort it out, but I put it down to the more open SR.Tech.around 78
    I am sure now of my tip opening is best 70 to 73 which is the JJ M5.
    i spoke with Edd Pillinger today and the Bronzite NY5* IS around 70 which should be ideal, and i should have it sometime next week, really looking forward to it. Edd made me a Clarinet MP in Bronzite which has a quality i like, something inbetween a crystal and a HR. So i am interested in how it will be with Alto Sax. I also use a Pillinger HR with Soprano that i selected about 4 yrs ago, from a bunch of MPs at his place, and it works very well. Are you familiar with this compound that Edd has developed, it is a mixture of Bronze and HR.
  12. I think it's a mix of bronze and plastic resin, probably acrylic, not HR. He uses a similar onyxite on the PPT mouthpieces he makes for Pete Thomas, substituting onyx for the bronze, some of these were made in bronzite as well.
  13. Thanks for the info. I was able to make a direct comparison with the HR and Bronzite with the clarinet, as Edd made an exact copy of the HR he had previously made for me. He said there is no obligation to buy the Alto Bronzite, but how can you not.
  14. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

  15. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator

    I used to bite a very long time ago (and still do from time to time). I had noticed one day when putting the reeds back into my aluminum Rico ReedSaver that the reed was not flat. That it was more curved near the tip area.

    This is when I started learning more about the curvature of the mpc rails, and that the curve can start at a variety of places on the mpcs. C*, C**, D, etc back then meant nothing to me except that it was harder to blow the larger the letters got for my alto sax.

    But I noticed that I would bit on a C* maybe more than on a D. odd ?

    Of course if someone plays a D and pinches alot they are essentially closing the tip and making it a C opening (for example). So one's tone can get more thin as they play more as the reed starts bending and closing up. I found this much easier to do on thinner cut reeds such as Hemkes than the Vandoren Traditional reeds.

    One solution I had was involving the neck strap.

    I would tightened the neck strap where it would pull the horn up and the position of the horn - ie, the mpc was so that it was pushing up on my upper teeth. This would free up my lower jaw.

    Previously to that I found out that I was putting the mpc in my mouth and my lower jaw would actually push it up to my upper teeth. Thus creating an environment where biting was more commonplace. That scenario was probably better for a double lip embouchure.

    I see that now on clarinet players as they bite up on the mpc and bring it up to the upper teeth. One reason I emphasis the right thumb properly holding the mpc up to the upper teeth. And then the lip actually goes out to meet the reed at a position closer to the section where the curve starts going away from the table, versus much closer to the tip where it can get closed up.
  16. He is great to deal with. I have one of his bass clarinet mouthpieces. He posted a few with different characteristics and was happy for me to choose. He has also refaced a number of other mouthpieces for me and I have never been disappointed.

  17. I tried the V16 briefly today, as I had some Clarinet to catch up on, will keep you posted, but found staccato is a bit more free.
    I just purchased a new support for the sax, it's called the Saxholder, and it does just that . It pushes the Mp to the upper teeth, in fact it takes a bit of getting used to.a bit expensive at £45. But also is magic from the sore neck point of view.
  18. Steve

    Steve Clarinet CE/Moderator Staff Member CE/Moderator


    reminds me of the harnesses we used for percussion when I did percussion for parades. I would play tri-toms or bass drum, though those were a bit more heavy duty.
  19. Hi Steve
    I recieved the Bronzite Alto Sax MP two days ago, and have posted a new thread with a rec, if you have time have a listen, see what you think
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