Cheap Clarinets (aka CSO)

Gandalfe

Gandalfe

Striving to play the changes in a melodic way.
Staff member
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David Speigelthal, one of my fav posters on the Clarinet BB posted this. I feel hobbyists should be aware how much work it takes to make CSOs work and you still will have some problems associated with soft metal and intonation. Fascinating:

Date: 2010-05-17 21:02

Will be playing the Clarinet 3 book (bass clarinet and sopranos in A, C, and Eb) in Mahler's 1st with our friendly local orchestra. Upon receiving the book early last week I was surprised to see that about half of the music is for the C clarinet. As I am terminally lazy when it comes to transposition I did a quick Internet search for C clarinets and found one of everyone's favorite CSOs, a Chinese-made hard-rubber instrument marketed by Berkeley Wind in California. Cost $195 with free shipping(!). I took a chance and ordered one, it arrived three days later (four days ago as I write this).

The instrument is actually better than I expected. Synopsis first, then the details.

Intonation: Excellent until high clarion C, then that note and all of the altissimo are quite flat.
Tone: No basis for comparison as I've never played another C clarinet, but seems fine to me (using a good Bb clarinet mouthpiece and decent reed).
Ergonomics: Needed lots of tweaking -- details to follow.
Quality of construction: Mediocre at best -- details to follow.

Now the details. It took me about 4-5 hours of play-testing/working on the instrument/play-testing to get the Berkeley to where I'm comfortable performing on it in public.

Intonation --- below the high C, the minor intonation discrepancies I heard were easily fixed by adjusting pad opening heights. However, from C and up into the altissimo I haven't found a solution to the severe flatness yet, other than to use resonance/alternate fingerings which I'm starting to mess around with. My theory about this is that the instrument seems to be built to about the same bore diameter as a Bb clarinet (based on it using a Bb clarinet mouthpiece), whereas acoustically the bore should be a bit smaller. But this is just speculation. Two barrels were provided with the instrument, of nearly identical length (?) -- I used the (very slightly) shorter of the two, pushed all the way in.

Ergonomics --- Just like when playing Eb clarinet, my fingers are too wide for the keys (and my hand position is generally lousy) so I tend to bump into adjacent keys or rings. To remedy this I did the following:
-- Narrowed the throat "A" key considerably and bent it to the right; narrowed both sliver keys substantially (and cut about 1/8" of length off the upper sliver key) and recurved the upper one as well.
-- Shortened the register key spatula slightly and dug a slight hollow in the instrument body underneath it so the key could sit slightly below the surface when closed (to prevent bumping it when operating the thumb ring).
-- Bent both bridge keys to meet along a slight diagonal to allow me to rotate the lower joint clockwise (as viewed from above) relative to the upper joint; and bent both l.h. spatula levers to the right, so that I don't have to rotate my left wrist to operate those two spatulas.

Materials and construction --- Cheap, soft brass keywork with very thin nickel plating. Very easy to bend. Sharp plating flash on the inside of the upper and lower rings, which I could actually feel when covering those rings with my fingertips (solution: filed and sanded off the sharp edges on the inner rims of the rings).
Of most concern to me, the bridge key had been crudely filed or ground by the manufacturer to avoid hitting the C#/G# key, and so much material had been removed that the bridge key is barely more than paper-thin and is clearly going to have to be reinforced somehow or it will bend and eventually break in the near future.
Looking inside the tonehole chimneys, what they call "undercutting" appears to be some very crude flaring of the bore-side inner wall of the toneholes, complete with what looks like molding flash.

Given how cheaply the thing is made, I'm amazed at how well it now plays! So I figure that for the very occasional use this clarinet will get, I've gotten a good deal at $195 purchase cost plus about 4-5 hours of my labor to make it semi-right. It acquitted itself well at orchestra rehearsal yesterday, although my altissimo notes were atrocious as I haven't quite nailed down the alternate fingerings to use up there. But from high C downward the clarinet sounded quite respectable, and I found it very comfortable with all the modifications to the key work.

Read more… <pointer back to the clarinet BB>
 
CSO post and inspiration

The inspiration being, in my case, to get off my @ss and start working on Bb-to-C transposition instead of mooning over C clarinets, especially since the next instrument I buy will definitely be a low-C bass clarinet.

As an intermediate player, I'm finding that the easiest way to get into this is to use folk songs (a banjo-playing friend lent me a book). Their familiarity and repetitive structure reward practice with success pretty quickly, which is key to learning. Eventually, I'll invest in the Barnes Books (English country dance), since I'll have the opportunity once a month or so to play at a Regency dance meeting.

Also, the key markings let me experiment with improvising an accompaniment, another skill in which I'm sadly deficient. (More scale work in my future, for sure!)

Thanks for re-posting this.
 
Well, it does depend on your definition of "cheap." The gentleman that posted that said he spent $195 on the instrument, he spent 5 hours tweaking it and let's say he spent about $100 in supplies. My hourly rate, if I was doing computer support for you, would be a minimum of $70 per hour. So, that's $195 + $350 + $100. That's, what, $645? That's a bit much. I might be able to eBay something a tad better for that amount.

However, regarding transposing in your head, I sometimes still mess it up. It'd be nice to have a C clarinet, but I don't know if I want to spend that kind of $ for one.
 
As I wrote on the other forum, I've tried many Chinese clarinets (mostly Bb) and they vary a lot from even worse than described in the first post to much better quality. I haven't found one I liked that could sell for anywhere near the one Dave bought. At least not yet. Though I have found some pretty decent Bb clarinets that could probably sell for around that price or just a bit more.

As far as the prices in the post above, when doing your own work you can consider prices at cost, not normal charges. Materials for this would probably come no where near $100, in fact it sounds like he didn't use many materials at all, but maybe you consider the cost of tools used also and in that case, who knows.
 
Charging yourself for your time is only really an option if it takes you away from billable time. If you weren't letting paid work wait it could be viewed as educational time, finding out what cheap stuff is halfways decent has value too.
 
Carl H. said:
Charging yourself for your time is only really an option if it takes you away from billable time. If you weren't letting paid work wait it could be viewed as educational time, finding out what cheap stuff is halfways decent has value too.
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I do agree, but the question is, "Am I doing this because I enjoy it?" -- i.e. it's a hobby -- or "This has to be done to make the horn work properly, taking away the time I could be doing something else musical, like practice."

I'm a computer tech. When I read a book on something work-related, say "Implementing and Deploying Windows 7 in the Enterprise," I'm not reading it for fun, even if the book is moderately amusing. I'm doing it because it'll help me when review time comes and I can get a raise that may be equal or more to the time I've put in. I run a couple websites and post here because I enjoy it -- in other words, it's a hobby.

In this particular instance, it looks like the work was done because it HAD to be, not because the repair guy was fixing the horn for a hobby.

FWIW, I'd probably look for a decent used C clarinet than a C soprano sax. Not because I'm a better clarinet player than sax player, but because a C clarinet has a greater range and I think I can use it in more situations: teaching lessons, covering oboe parts, whatever.

Just an opinion :D.
 
pete said:
I do agree, but the question is, "Am I doing this because I enjoy it?" -- i.e. it's a hobby -- or "This has to be done to make the horn work properly, taking away the time I could be doing something else musical, like practice."
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This is only true if the time you spend repairing your own instrument really comes in expense of working and you are actually losing, or maybe time for other important things that you are forced to miss (if they are important enough you wouldn't do this to miss them). Unless you have no free time at all, you can consider doing it in your free time. I've never repaired my instruments and considered it losing the hourly rate. I do this in my free time.

Maybe some repairers don't actually like doing it so if they have to fix their own instrument it feels like an annoying chore. If you're just thinking how you could practice instead, why don't you practice instead and do it at a time you wouldn't practice instead (or do you use every free minute you have to practice?).
 
clarnibass said:
Also you came up with approx $450 for this additional work. From the details possible to know in the first post, I can't imagine this work costing near that much.
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But it would still be honest to value your hobbyist's work reasonably. You are spending time on an instrument that could also be spent otherwise, not necessarily with money-earning work but with your family or just sitting in your comfy chair reading a book.

Come to think of it, I still prefer tinkering with my instruments over going shoe shopping with my wife and the two daughters. ;-)

FWIW I have a C clarinet, and it paid for itself the minute I had to help my daughter with some piano homework. (When I have to cover her bass-cleffed left hand parts I take the Alto clarinet...)
 
I got all my instruments for chicken feed only. But all of them were in terrible or mostly unplayable condition. It took me appr. 20h and some euros to bring them all (!) to a good condition. Overall investment was below 2.500,-EUR for 7 clarinets.
And now I enjoy changing between very nice instruments with different character and capabilities.
The second I've learned many hints about this horns, because I had to inspect every pipe well before refitting it. Now I konow it's problems and advantages in detail.
That's worth more than 20h of my life... ;-)

kindly
Roman


PS: Another example I was laughed about for sometimes - old cars. I restored all my (used, old) cars by myself. And all this cars took me round the world. If they failed I didn't come angry, because I knew about reasons and solutions. It took only some minutes in most cases to fix. My friends all wasted time in car repair facilities, on the hook of a tow-car or within endless discussions with imcompetent "helpers" in the garage (esp. in foreign countries). But this time I spent with friends and wife in the nicest places allover - due to my good knowledge about my "baby";-)
My opinion is: Spent some time to learn about the things around you and repair/tune it as most as possible by yourself. This is the best investment in future joy... ;-) Just my 2ct.
 
Frequently we have the Chinese made low cost instruments brought to our repair shop by people who think they got a real bargain in Ebay. The only problem is that the instrument doesn't play and things keep falling off like the springs, pads, posts, corks, felts, etc.

We tell them that all of that can be fixed (which it can), but that it would exceed the value of the instrument, and that it would still have the same tone and intonation problems and the same poor quality mouthpiece that it came with.

I have heard of some professional techs who have taken some of the Chinese instruments and fixed their flaws so that they play ok, and then resell them, basically to recoup their repair time. My response to this is "why bother"? Why not take a good instrument and make it better rather than take a poor instrument and make it just passable.

Our store offers a $50 trade in on a used, and a $100 trade in on a new instrument to the folks that we have to turn down for repairs on this basis. If they take the offer, they end up with a much better instrument, and we get another ISO (POS) out of circulation.
 
jbtsax said:
Frequently we have the Chinese made low cost instruments brought to our repair shop by people who think they got a real bargain in Ebay. The only problem is that the instrument doesn't play and things keep falling off like the springs, pads, posts, corks, felts, etc.
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How recently has this happened John. This year? I don't doubt you at all but still hear (last year) that a really good player made a CSO work for him/her. I always think, sure... right.
 
About 15 years ago I invested in a new Buffet Prestige C clarinet. Every problem associated with the cheap Chinese horns I had on this instrument. Many barrels, mouthpieces and adjustments later, it was still flat above high C. Ralph Morgan modified a Bb clarinet mouthpiece and it improved the intonation but I still had to bite to raise the upper register.
 
jbtsax said:
Why not take a good instrument and make it better rather than take a poor instrument and make it just passable.
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...because the difference between fixed "poor" instrument and a "would be ok" branded horn will be >200,- almost... That's nearly the price for overhauling the next CSO in stock ;-)

I invest/ed my pennies in well done MPCs and let tune my clarinets by a "blindfolded" professional overhauler specialised in such critical instruments. He loves the clarinet and don' t sell instruments. Therefore he is blind to the brand and only the technical challenge enjoys him.

Only 1 of 7 overhauled objects couldn't be tuned well below the 250,-EUR-limit. But this was a misbored one - only to fix with a new bore pattern in the upper part. And this was/is an older branded (East-German) instrument, not a CSO from China!

If the cheap clarinet is made from (authentic) glass-hard ebonite and the keywork not to weak (that's the one and only k.o.-factor for me) a pro can switch it into a well playing starter kit. The cost should be less than 500,- overall (buy + overhaul + medium class MPC), and that is a very low limit for branded stuff - near the half I would say!

kindly
Roman
 
Hi John, just wondering, have you seen yet the Chinese instruments that are not CSOs at all, and have decent build quality? I've seen more than a few now that were absolutely worth repairing. I also just recently saw a known brand name student model, it had a pretty good design, intonation, tone, but judging from the keys and pads, I would think it was a CSO!

tictactux said:
But it would still be honest to value your hobbyist's work reasonably. You are spending time on an instrument that could also be spent otherwise, not necessarily with money-earning work but with your family or just sitting in your comfy chair reading a book.
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Yes, value it reasonably. Almost any time you spend doing something you could have spent doing something else. Do you (or anyone) really not have even a few seconds you are doing something you don't have to do? Unless this is the case, considering you are losing because e.g. you could read a book instead is absurd to me... :) If, for someone, working on an instrument is so terrible that you always consider what you could do instead, don't do it... :)
 
clarnibass said:
Yes, value it (your time --Ben) reasonably. Almost any time you spend doing something you could have spent doing something else. Do you (or anyone) really not have even a few seconds you are doing something you don't have to do? Unless this is the case, considering you are losing because e.g. you could read a book instead is absurd to me... :) If, for someone, working on an instrument is so terrible that you always consider what you could do instead, don't do it... :)
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If you have unlimited time at hand (value of a unit of time tends to go toward zero) and you could do it yourself, yes. But consider the case of mopping the floor. You could do it yourself, being perfectly capable of performing that task. Then, you might consider outsourcing this chore to a maid or a janitor. You'd have to pay them say $20 an hour, and this means that you estimate your own time more valuable than theirs (and you don't even earn money for it), even if it means you just read a book in that time. Same with instrument repair work - sometimes you just think you get better to do with your limited time on earth than buffing keys or cutting molding flash from clarinet key holes. This might not always be a rational thing to do when seen from the outside, but for an individual it may make perfect sense.

We all make such decisions every time we don't do some work ourselves, when time plus material minus happiness (satisfaction in doing it oneself) is greater than some amount of money we'd have to pay someone else for doing it.

Repair people are among the first to say "it's uneconomical to do it at all", in which case the same equation applies: time plus material minus job satisfaction is greater than the value of the instrument.

Of course, there is no exact figure how much worth time or job satisfaction (or even love and affection when it comes to family activities) are, and these values may vary during your life, or even during the seasons. But I believe that ultimately the individual always acts along economical decisions, however obscure they may appear to the casual observer.
 
CSO = Clarinet Shaped Object (a nick for most of the Asia borne instruments from acrylic or ebonite...)

MPC = MoutPiece

kindly
Roman
 
ISO: Instrument Shaped Object (nearly every xSO is a "shaped object", so what would an SSO be then?)

POS: Piece of Sh..uhm..ape. :)
 
Thanks! My first ever instrument was a CSO then, or more technically a POS! I sold it for £10 in about 1986. I was pleased to get that much for it! Mind you it had got me to grade 5. It was actually a great instrument to learn on, because it fell apart so regularly I learnt loads about how the mechanism works!
 
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