Chicago Symphony Orchestra goes on Strike
- Thread starter Steve
- Start date
salary information of the CSO
http://www.icsom.org/settlements/bulletins/chicago08rev.pdf
http://www.icsom.org/settlements/bulletins/chicago08rev.pdf
An AVERAGE salary of $ 173'000.- doesn't look very miserable to me. I spend a fantastic week at the UCSD jazz camp this summer and one the attendees was a good young professinal guitar player from the West Coast. He told me his standard rate for a wedding or a small corporate gig was $ 65 for very long hours...
J
J
I too have had mixed feelings about Orchestral salaries for quite some time. YES they deserve all pay they can get, YES they are at the top of the 'food chain' in many respects, YES I believe in the power& purpose of organized labor, but when is enough-enough and the audience has to suffer for it?
IF cso mgmt made previous contractual offers they now suddenly cant live up to; then the musicians have a legal leg to stand on, and I support them fully. However, IF mgmt has come clean (unlikely) and all their cards show that the money simply isnt there, THEN I believe further negotiation is warranted on both sides for the table, to avoid striking.
Striking leaves a lingering bad taste in hefty donors mouths (if it were their OWN companies, they;d have outsourced the work to China pdq with no compunction), Not to mention that I feel the entire foundation/501(c)3/ donor system of arts funding is a sham that's destined to fail.
Have to admit, (from my trench
) $65 for a gig is on the low side, even in difficult times. Its a tremendously difficult line to balance, the point at when we undervalue ourselves to bring a few plus-signs in, as opposed to earning a fair-market wage as performers.
OTOH:
IF cso mgmt made previous contractual offers they now suddenly cant live up to; then the musicians have a legal leg to stand on, and I support them fully. However, IF mgmt has come clean (unlikely) and all their cards show that the money simply isnt there, THEN I believe further negotiation is warranted on both sides for the table, to avoid striking.
Striking leaves a lingering bad taste in hefty donors mouths (if it were their OWN companies, they;d have outsourced the work to China pdq with no compunction), Not to mention that I feel the entire foundation/501(c)3/ donor system of arts funding is a sham that's destined to fail.
Have to admit, (from my trench
) $65 for a gig is on the low side, even in difficult times. Its a tremendously difficult line to balance, the point at when we undervalue ourselves to bring a few plus-signs in, as opposed to earning a fair-market wage as performers.OTOH:
Oh, please. You can't compare a young guitar player with a member of the CSO. Not comparable on ANY level...
Depends what they mean by average. If They're adding in the salaries of the principals, and Maestro Muti, then the ordinary member is going to be earning a long way below this. Median would be a better indicator. A good way of understanding this is to say that if Bill Gates walked into a bar, on average, every one in the bar would be a millionaire.
The pdf show's a scale in the $140K + range. Not shabby and a long way over the US median salary, which is about $50K. Then add in the extras for giving lessons, concerts outside the orchestra....
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Perhaps not, in terms of musicianship or experience;
But since their respective incomes are derived solely/primarily from paid performances;
therefore, economically; they are both very much on the same playing field.
(really though, who knows? that kid could be all over the fretboard, or not, as the case may be)
Compare a price of a top of the line guitar against an entry level professional violin. Now add in the price of a professional violin bow.
Now imagine the guitar player playing exactly the same way every time - in unison with 10 other guitar players while following the whim of a 3rd party, using the full fretboard at very very fast speeds - and not looking at the fret board.
Now imagine the guitar player playing exactly the same way every time - in unison with 10 other guitar players while following the whim of a 3rd party, using the full fretboard at very very fast speeds - and not looking at the fret board.
In the end it comes down to what the customer will pay for. Endowments, etc are all built from donations and charities working for the organization or person.
Comparing a (bass) guitarist like, oh say, Paul MacCartney compared to a local guy playing at the local restaurant ... it comes down to popularity and fan following.
On the low end individuals/bands via for play time which may push the pay rate down.
On the high end the customer comes to the individual/band.
All in between is a mixture of vying for a contract and income vs a marketing division to bring in more customers and funds.
In the Orchestras they work by marketing the talent in the organization and going out and using that known talent to bring in donations and increase the visibility, which leads to trying to bring in more donations and increasing the visibility ...
The Detroit SO had a breakdown once of ticket sales and Hall costs somewhere. The ticket sales did not break even with hall costs and staff costs. Donations drove the orchestra. When the economy went south and donations dried up so did salaries.
Of course, there have been orchestras going out of business. Which now increases the competition by more musicians vying for the same position which theoretically to basic economics could lower the salary - but the politics involved is something else.
Comparing a (bass) guitarist like, oh say, Paul MacCartney compared to a local guy playing at the local restaurant ... it comes down to popularity and fan following.
On the low end individuals/bands via for play time which may push the pay rate down.
On the high end the customer comes to the individual/band.
All in between is a mixture of vying for a contract and income vs a marketing division to bring in more customers and funds.
In the Orchestras they work by marketing the talent in the organization and going out and using that known talent to bring in donations and increase the visibility, which leads to trying to bring in more donations and increasing the visibility ...
The Detroit SO had a breakdown once of ticket sales and Hall costs somewhere. The ticket sales did not break even with hall costs and staff costs. Donations drove the orchestra. When the economy went south and donations dried up so did salaries.
Of course, there have been orchestras going out of business. Which now increases the competition by more musicians vying for the same position which theoretically to basic economics could lower the salary - but the politics involved is something else.
I thought I had a decent imagination, but this is beyond my comprehension.
It isn't politics, it is the business model. You do not want your players to be out looking for a better paying gig, you want them to be focused on giving the best performance possible. If you are looking over your shoulder fearing loss of employment and constantly looking for options, the group will quickly disintegrate.
The entire ensemble isn't contracted on a yearly basis for good reason. It makes it possible for them to set wages - to a certain degree - which will keep membership at a certain level. Folks may choose to move up, but seldom fear loss of position/income if they are performing up to expectations. If boards want to get and keep the best players, the money needs to be there. If they cut wages, the better players will go elsewhere and less experienced players will move in.
Personally, there isn't enough money to get me to move to a metropolitan area where the good paying symphonic gigs are. It just isn't worth it to me.
It's almost worth belonging to the American Federation of Musicians...
...just to read the monthly updates on symphonic negotiations and the job openings. We get a good laugh every month as we run down the columns.
Not all of them put wage information into the announcements any longer, but from those that do you can get a very good indication of the state of "professional" music. The pittances that most orchestras pay, compared to what an automobile mechanic (with one hundredth the investment in education) can pull down in Houston is alarming.
(That the smaller groups (Paducah, Syracuse and the like) put ads in the union paper with fee for service payments that barely cover the transportation expenses plus a minimum wage just shows you how desperate most musicians are.)
Push comes to shove, the vast majority of the American public doesn't care two sticks about "art" music, preferring instead to dribble out their money to "rock" stars who get greater compensation than do "art" folks, but who exist in far fewer numbers, thus evening out the demand for consumer dollars to the point that a couple of million albums purchased results in enough money to live a decadent lifestyle like most of the pop world.
(We never heard anything about Sabine Meyer being involved in Rolling Stones like antics, did we? John Dehnman, maybe, but not Sabine.)
Don't get me wrong - I would far rather play "art" music than the pop and rock that I play now. But, getting a couple of hundred bucks for a hard night's work plus a rehearsal or two a month to keep the performance level up, is far more than I could ever realize while competing in an over saturated market full of Sabine Meyer wannabes who clog up all of the non-paying slots, much less the paid ones.
And, while the physical labor involved (I sum up my musical group activities as being six hours of longshoring for every three hours of performance) isn't all that fun at my semi-advanced age of 63-ish years, I have about as much fun with the playing. Pulling off three or four hours of a decent baritone part with doubled clarinet and bass clarinet gives me far more playing time than would the bass clarinet slot with a local orchestra.
It is sad indeed when you come to the realization that the music you like (art, jazz, whatever) doesn't coincide with the tastes of the paying public. The best approach is to accept the fact, and move on.
...just to read the monthly updates on symphonic negotiations and the job openings. We get a good laugh every month as we run down the columns.
Not all of them put wage information into the announcements any longer, but from those that do you can get a very good indication of the state of "professional" music. The pittances that most orchestras pay, compared to what an automobile mechanic (with one hundredth the investment in education) can pull down in Houston is alarming.
(That the smaller groups (Paducah, Syracuse and the like) put ads in the union paper with fee for service payments that barely cover the transportation expenses plus a minimum wage just shows you how desperate most musicians are.)
Push comes to shove, the vast majority of the American public doesn't care two sticks about "art" music, preferring instead to dribble out their money to "rock" stars who get greater compensation than do "art" folks, but who exist in far fewer numbers, thus evening out the demand for consumer dollars to the point that a couple of million albums purchased results in enough money to live a decadent lifestyle like most of the pop world.
(We never heard anything about Sabine Meyer being involved in Rolling Stones like antics, did we? John Dehnman, maybe, but not Sabine.)
Don't get me wrong - I would far rather play "art" music than the pop and rock that I play now. But, getting a couple of hundred bucks for a hard night's work plus a rehearsal or two a month to keep the performance level up, is far more than I could ever realize while competing in an over saturated market full of Sabine Meyer wannabes who clog up all of the non-paying slots, much less the paid ones.
And, while the physical labor involved (I sum up my musical group activities as being six hours of longshoring for every three hours of performance) isn't all that fun at my semi-advanced age of 63-ish years, I have about as much fun with the playing. Pulling off three or four hours of a decent baritone part with doubled clarinet and bass clarinet gives me far more playing time than would the bass clarinet slot with a local orchestra.
It is sad indeed when you come to the realization that the music you like (art, jazz, whatever) doesn't coincide with the tastes of the paying public. The best approach is to accept the fact, and move on.
First, please give the guitar players a break. It's not like we have alto clarinets.
Second, I really don't like the argument of, "They're getting paid sooooo much, so they deserve to have their salary cut to $whatever." The thing to look at is the percentage cut. I got about 30% cut for the past four or five years and an increase in the amount I have to pay for health insurance, including some decrease in options. So, I think the Minnesota group is stupid for refusing a slightly more than 10% salary deduction for all of two years. I dunno how much of a decrease that the Detroit group had.
Second, I really don't like the argument of, "They're getting paid sooooo much, so they deserve to have their salary cut to $whatever." The thing to look at is the percentage cut. I got about 30% cut for the past four or five years and an increase in the amount I have to pay for health insurance, including some decrease in options. So, I think the Minnesota group is stupid for refusing a slightly more than 10% salary deduction for all of two years. I dunno how much of a decrease that the Detroit group had.