Clarion register issues

Smitty

Hello bass clarinet experts. I am in hope that you might be able to help solve a problem I'm having with bass clarinet in the clarion register, specifically the notes at the top of the staff, especially F# and G. The horn is an old Selmer Depose, probably from the 50s (Q186), just the low E horn, which suites my purposes well. It's set up with leather pads and resonators. I am a multi-instrumentalist, play mostly jazz but some pit, all the saxes, but mostly tenor, soprano clarinet since I was a kid (approaching 60 now), flute, etc. Have a gig coming up this weekend with a feature on Bill Holman's arrangement of Peacocks. Unfortunately, I am making a few too many peacock noises in the range I mention, especially jumping from open notes to the clarion F#. I'm playing a Vandoren B46, tried all kinds of reeds, but the issue is helped by increased stiffness, worse with soft reeds. Plays best in that range on a 2 1/2 or medium tenor fibracell, at the expense of some timbre in the chalumeau compared to softer ones. Doesn't seem to matter much whether it's a bass clarinet or a tenor reed. I've had it in to my local tech a half dozen times, several problems corrected, but he can't find anything more amiss. I have to say he is a good man with personal experience playing bass clarinet, but doesn't currently have a horn or range of mouthpieces to experiment with. The squawk does seem better with his unknown small tip-opening mouthpiece, but the sound is too small for what I play. I think I'm dealing with mouthpiece/reed issues, but would appreciate any comments/recommendations from those more experienced with bass than I am - I've been playing the horn off and on for a few years. Not aware of any bass clarinet specialists in my area.
Ron
Olympia, WA
 
FYI, the "depose" part of "Selmer Déposé" just means "registered" as in "registered trademark."

I'm putting my money on a leak.
 
Nitai (Clarnibass) is an excellent bass clarinetist as well as an accomplished woodwind tech. Hopefully he will post his thoughts on this. Sometimes leaks in the neck tenon(s) are or mouthpiece are overlooked. A split in the cork can allow the air to escape. On the metal to metal tenons, they can often feel tight but still leak because one is out of round. I have not tried it, but the tenor sax neck leak isolator might expand to the right size to check bass clarinet neck joints.

If the "chirp" on the F# and G are really an overtone that momentarily takes over the soundwave or "regime of oscillation" as Benade calls it, then the cause would be something that disrupts the fundamental and allows the harmonic to sound ie. a "leak" like Pete says.
 
I've had troubles with this in the past few years, and between my tech, my drummer (who is a dentist) and myself, we've traced it down to uneven teeth due to chipping (from mine explosions), with the result that one rail or another of the mouthpiece is closer to the reed tip than the other.

Robby (my drummer) dressed my front teeth ever so slightly with some sort of grinding wheel in his "dental handpiece", and the squawking stopped. However, I still have to be careful to adjust my neck and mouthpiece angles. (I play with the neck offset to one side, the better to see the charts (which are usually down from me on a front.)

It may not be your problem, but it's one source where it can come from. We chased leaks right and left, only to find that it was the angle that the now chipped down teeth hit the mouthpiece. Same reed issues (2 1/2 for better sound in the lower register and volume without being strident), and an instrument that was certainly not the problem.

It's nice to have a couple of dentists in my group, the better to deal with teeth issues.
 
Interesting comments, all very much appreciated. Pete and JBT, the corks are perfect, neck was resoldered a few months ago due to a separated joint, looks perfect, recently very carefully checked by my guy with exactly the problem you suggest in mind. tenon joint is perfectly round - I put some grease on it also. I do work on my instruments as well and am comfortable with a lot of repairs. To me, the neck feels tight, but I ran bead of CA on all the joints anyway. Can't feel an obvious difference. It is interesting that the tendency to squawk is less on the F# fork fingering than on the middle finger.

Sotsdo, I do have uneven front teeth and I will pay close attention to that. I also have played around with mouthpiece angle - I have a modified neck strap that allows me to switch between tenor, alto, bari, and bass clarinet with changing the strap, and it does offer a lot of flexibility. The problem notes are certainly worse with extreme positions, but adjusting the position doesn't make it go away. My feeling about this is that it is an issue with horn that can be compensated for by careful technique and reed choice. I will also say that every bass clarinet I have played has felt stuffy in the clarion range, but I have only sampled a few. It is useful for me to learn that you have seen the same problem and ruled out a leak as the cause. Do you or anyone else think a different mouthpiece would be of benefit? I'm curious about the Grabners, have never played one.

Again, many thanks for the shared wisdom.
 
Are you an experienced bass clarinet player or a doubler? Mouthpiece angle of approach may be a factor. Sticking a clarinet mouthpiece in your mouth the same angle as a sax mouthpiece can cause problems. Consider the Bay angled neck and how it differs from the standard offering.

A different mouthpiece may or may not help, much depends on the particulars of your specific mouthpiece. Sometimes having your mouthpiece cleaned up or perfected can be a better investment than trying out many different pieces. If it is a quality piece I'd be inclined to consult on this first before shopping for a new one.


Bass Clarinet Mouthpiece Angle: Would you adjust the placement of the bottom (bell) towards your feet in order to create an angle closer to the Bb soprano?

Klug: No. I would suggest having the student get used to the lower mouthpiece angle into the mouth, as this reduces the embouchure bite on the reed and helps get a more characteristic bass clarinet tone. This mouthpiece angle, determined by the crook of the instrument neck, can vary from brand to brand. Some well-meaning manufacturers, in an attempt to make a soprano player ‘morecomfortable’ when switching to bass, have made the neck/mouthpiece angle significantly higher. This can have negative ramifications when the young player can no longer reach the mouthpiece unless employing the New York City phone book to sit on! Not all students will fit all brands of bass clarinets.

Drapkin: This is an issue that some manufacturers have tried to address for years. First of all, the bass clarinet is a clarinet and not a saxophone. Bass Clarinet uses a variation of the standard clarinet embouchure - larger - but the concept remains the same. In order to achieve a good embouchure, your headmust find the proper angle. Only then will you achieve optimal tone production.

Rodriguez: Yes. I do that myself, even though I have a bass clarinet with a neck that isideally angled. The goal is to get a mouthpiece angle as close as possible (if not identical) to the soprano clarinet. I always sit towards the front of the chair and keep my upper body straight and slightly leaning forward. This gives me more room to place the bell towards my feet. I usually have my right foot forward (in front of the clarinet) and my left one behind (under the chair) so I can gain body stability. If you are playing a bass clarinet with a straight neck, do not be afraid to go as far back as possible. This will get you closer to the ideal angle.
Click to expand...

http://www.clarinetcity.com/images/Bass_Clarinet_101.pdf
 
Grabner's mouthpiece is my go to answer. I had a used Leblanc Paris bass clarinet. As a doubler, I didn't want to put a lot of money into my instrument but I couldn't get the clarion and altissimo ranges to speak for me for love or money. And when I switched instruments (all the time!) from bari, tenor, and alto sax or clarinet, the problem was even worse. I worked with a talented tech and really put too much money into tweaking the instrument. Then I bought a Walter Grabner bass clarinet mouthpiece. I would liken that experience to the immediate gains I made on the flute when I purchased a custom flute head. Immediately my problem halved. I knew that with time I could get the instrument to speak in all ranges, but it would take me years of practice.

So I called Dave Kessler and he got me a Selmer Privilege model 67 bass clarinet that had just been used that year on the NAMM show. The price was over $3000 less than a new one, but still so pricy. I hate to say it, but this doubler could instantly play without squeaks from the low C (not available on most clarinets) to the first F above the staff. I use the instrument for a six day gig every year in Dec and three or so more gigs a year. I never pull it out to practice until I have a gig coming up and with the Grabner mouthpiece it just works. YMMV. But for this player playing any and all saxes, sop, alto, and bass clarinet, this solution works for me. I understand that it isn't a good solution for all people.
 
For that kind of money, you could also hire someone to just play the part and let them maintain and move the instrument.
 
I am a doubler, but I was a clarinet player long before anything else, and still consider myself a clarinetist first. My experience with the bass is, admittedly, more limited. I will spend more time experimenting with the angle, but I am inclined to try the Grabner out, see if it makes a difference. I would like to have a better instrument, but it's hard to justify spending that kind of cash on a horn that I only get to use occasionally. The Selmer Privelege sounds like a dream, unfortunately probably 10X the value of my current horns (my arsenal of sopranos is also tilted towards vintage Selmer including Series 55, CT and 10G). Wonderful that you could do that, Gandalfe. OTOH, the shorty low E bass that I own has the advantage of smaller size, a little help when I have to lug tenor and soprano sax, soprano and bass clarinet, flute to a gig, like tonight. Glad that my wife likes to go to the shows, as I sometimes need the help schlepping the stuff.

Thanks again for all the insightful comments. I really do appreciate it!
Ron
 
One other point. If your Selmer is like my Series 9, there is a linkage between the lower section keys and the octave mechanism that is easily screwed up in assembly and disassembly. John Werth in Redmond was able to properly regulate the whole thing when I was having similar issues to yours, and put some shrink tubing on the parts so it would be more difficult for me to screw up again.
 
What kind of register mechanism does the horn have? It could be as simple as that. The Yamaha YCL-221 that I played for years always had that problem, which I traced down to the single register mechanism. I've played a few other horns (all professional, low C models), and only ever had that problem with the yamaha.
 
Not really sure what the Yamaha has - never played one. Mine has a toggle on the back side activated by the register key, in turn acting on the pip on the upper body and articulating with the neck pip. There is also input from the mid register D. Although it looks simple at first glance, it's actually complex. Seems to function ok, but I will watch it closely.

BTW, made it through that gig mostly without errant peacock noises, but only with great care on the difficult notes. Haven't heard the recording yet, but I'm hopeful it's ok.
Best to you all.
Ron
 
Not really possible to say without trying the clarinet.

If the problem is identical on G and F# then it's likely not an ajusting problem of the stacks, since that wouldn't affect G. This is arelatively common issue that makes F# problematic, but not G.

If it's a very high pitch squeak, then a leak is possible. A leak at the top would generally make the higher clarion more problematic i.e. A and B would usually be worse than G and F# if the leak is above that. Otherwise it's most likely not a leak there. So it might be a leak around the D/A key area, which affects the G and F# mostly. It's possible that a leak would affect the upper register but the lower register would feel pretty good (might seem fine and only feel better after repairs).

If not a leak, a squeak in a specific area like this can often be a mouthpiece and reed issue. It can be either, both, or even the specific combination of both. Not possible to say without someone else trying it or trying another mouthpiece/reed.
 
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