early big band transcriptions

[Merlin]

I've done quite a number of big band transcriptions over the years, and every time I do, I learn something new.

One of the things that is most evident to me lately is how the harmonic language of the 20's and 30's is ignored by just about every arranging text I've every studied.

The tune I've been working on the past few days is the Fletcher Henderson version of "You Rascal, You". It's in E minor. The tendency in just about every arranging text is to present the m7 chord as the preferred form for use in a jazz arrangement. All through the chart the m6 form is used; that is E-G-B-C#.

One of the other notable features is the ninths on dominant chords. I haven't found a single example in the last four charts I've lifted of a flat 9 on a dominant. They're all natural 9s. (e.g. B-D#-F#-A-C#)

Diminished chords are used quite frequently as passing chords, but never with any extensions. Four part level of harmony, max.

Three part harmony is quite common, especially in 20's charts. Augmented triads are frequently used in place of dominant 7ths. Mood Indigo is a great example of this.

I'm also surprised by the amount of drop 2 voicing that I hear in brass section writing. Normally in a modern big band, the brass section is almost always written in close position. With 7 or 8 players, it's difficult to open the voicing until the lead trumpet gets fairly high up. The older charts often used 3 trumpets and 2 bones, so the voicings open even when the trumpets are in the staff. Four part harmony with the melody doubled at the octave rules the day here. (e.g. an Em6 chord voiced down from the lead trumpet might be: G/C#/B/G/E) This works quite well, with the trumpets and trombones both in good ranges, and the 1st trombone doubling 1st trumpet.

Half-diminished, or m7b5 chords are scarce here too. Most of them are really momentary inversion of the tonic minor 6th chord, and never form part of a ii-V-i progression.

The saxophone orchestration is much more varied than our AATTB or SATTB.

I've encountered:

AATT
AATB
AAAT
AATT with the 2nd alto doubling bari
ATTB (very common on old Basie tunes)
SATB
SCAT (not what it looks like!)
CCCC
CCTT
CCAT
CATB
AAT
AAA
ATT
ATB

One of the other notables is the drumming. At times in older jazz arrangements, the drums will even drop out, emerging to play figures in the spaces between vocal statements. It seems clear that drummers got the habit of getting out of the way of singers and soloists.

I may get some of these things into postable examples one of these days, if anyone is really interested.

 

[Ed]

To the drummer comment - I think that's one reason Lester Young preferred drummers who just gave him a nice beat but were basically laid back. When I listen to the great stuff from the 20's and the 30's I am struck with how well it seems people listened to each other. There's almost an innate desire to blend and to serve the arrangement.

I've been after a summer big band that I play with to allow some of us to bring a number of horns and to switch off during different tunes. There are times when it would be cool to have two or three bari saxes blasting away and others when it could be omitted.

 

[Merlin]

One of the other things you'll notice about early big band drumming is that there's very little use of ride cymbals until about the late 40's. Hi-hats, choke cymbals and brushes were the rule of the day.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Merlin: Thanks for your post. While I'm a little shy on the technical knowledge, I can certainly hear what you are describing when I listen to and play my favorite music - that of the '20's and early 30's jazz, continued to current trad-bands and recreations of the early dance orchestras (some call that hot-dance style).

And, I agree that drumming from that era was much more dedicated to the ensemble than what I've heard in modern jazz.

One tune comes to mind - I'LL BE A FRIEND WITH PLEASURE as recorded by Bix Beiderbecke. In the third phrase, there is a minor-6th chord (if the tune is played in Eb, that chord would be a Bbm6) that many amateur bands completely miss. It makes a huge difference when played correctly. I can instantly tell if a band I'm hearing knows their stuff when they play this tune.

Of course, there are other tunes with similar minor 6th chords and the diminished chords you mention.

All of these things (the chords, the phrasing, and the drumming) makes for a delightful sound and one that is almost universally appreciated when done correctly. I've seen it time after time - crowds that have never heard this kind of music almost always react well to it. DAVE

 

[Al Stevens]

"I'll Be a Friend With Pleasure" is a much-misunderstood tune both in the harmonies and the meter of the melody. Condon observes in the liner notes of his Bixieland album that Hackett (aka Pete Pesci) is the only one in the band who actually knows the tune. Yet Hackett slightly modifies the opening melody with two quarter notes, two eighth notes, quarter note rest in the first measure, whereas the Bix recording has four quarter notes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tt05pYJZgI
http://pubcs.free.fr/jg/jg_BHackett_I'll_Be_A_Friend_With_Pleasure.pdf

The Condon version and others since have kind of modified the tune from the way Bix's band played it. Look at the chords in the Hackett transcription and then listen to the Bix recording.

Listen to this version for yet another approach to the 1st measure. This is the phrasing I hear played most often by contemporary trad bands.

http://www.deezer.com/track/i-ll-be-a-friend-with-pleasure-T621572

 

[Dave Dolson]

Geez, Al . . . what is that Deezer? Painful . . . and it sounded to me like the ensemble was full of conflicts-in-style. Talk about murdering a good tune! The meter was too fast and the vocal totally inaccurate, to say nothing about the missing chords.

I've never been a fan of Hackett or Condon - the whole Nixieland thing, either. But to each his own, I 'spose.

I see no reason to alter the chords to the tune. The way Bix and His Orchestra did it was perfect, in my view.

From the youtube link, I watched a couple of other bands doing the tune - none were impressive. DAVE

 

[Al Stevens]

Geez, Al . . . what is that Deezer? Painful . . . and it sounded to me like the ensemble was full of conflicts-in-style. Talk about murdering a good tune! The meter was too fast and the vocal totally inaccurate, to say nothing about the missing chords.

Typical hobbyist trad band. I've heard hundreds of them. At least they keep interest in the music alive in their home towns. I posted the link because it was the first one I found with that particular opening measure.

I've never been a fan of Hackett or Condon - the whole Nixieland thing, either. But to each his own, I 'spose.

Hackett wasn't with Condon very often. I'm a big fan of that style of Dixieland. I grew up on it, and was able to work with a bunch of those guys over the years after I got old enough and while they were still alive.

I see no reason to alter the chords to the tune. The way Bix and His Orchestra did it was perfect, in my view.

There certainly wasn't anything wrong with them in that context, and that's the way I prefer to play the tune with a trad band. But in a more modern context, I can see lots of places where reharmonization is appropriate for that tune and many others.

Whenever such discussions come up, I wonder how the composer wrote it and try to find out. I haven't heard any other version of the tune from that era to compare.

For example, if you compare Joe Sullivan's version of his own composition, Little Rock Getaway, to Bob Zurke's version with Crosby's Bobcats, you almost don't recognize the tune. But the Zurke version was a hit, so that's what most of the piano players emulate. Even the published sheet uses the Zurke arrangement.

 

[Al Stevens]

I've done quite a number of big band transcriptions over the years, and every time I do, I learn something new.

One of the things that is most evident to me lately is how the harmonic language of the 20's and 30's is ignored by just about every arranging text I've every studied.
...
I may get some of these things into postable examples one of these days, if anyone is really interested.

I'm really interested.

Chances are those arranging texts you read were written more recently than the arrangements you have transcribed. Here's the bible as far as I'm concerned:

http://www.sammynesticomusic.com/

Click "Educational Books."

 

[Merlin]

I'm really interested.

Chances are those arranging texts you read were written more recently than the arrangements you have transcribed. Here's the bible as far as I'm concerned:

http://www.sammynesticomusic.com/

Click "Educational Books."

They definitely are. However, in my mind it's good to know how the historical development took place.

Changes Over Time by Fred Sturm is one of the few books that tackles the historical development of jazz arranging. Great book.

Inside the Score is my other bible. That's the book that had everything I ever wanted to know about writing good passing chords.

 

[sideC]

One of the other things you'll notice about early big band drumming is that there's very little use of ride cymbals until about the late 40's. Hi-hats, choke cymbals and brushes were the rule of the day.

Drummers usually kept time with the bass drum, not the ride cymbal, back in the day. Even on the very early things recorded by Bird and Diz, you hear "4 on the floor". I think of cymbals developing sort of on a similar time line as the upright bass, which replaced the tuba. I remember hearing an interview of the legendary drummer Warren "Baby" Dodds explaining his role as a drummer. You have to realize that Baby Dodds was one of the very first jazz greats on any instrument, so he goes back to the beginning. In this interview, he explains, and demonstrates, how he supported the soloists and ensembles he worked with. When he spoke about ornimentation, he talked about playing the shells, and what he did with the shells. He would use the shells, he said, to spur on a soloist, and to spice up the ensemble. After a minute, I realized that he used the shells the way a modern drummer used the cymbals. If you look at one of those old time drum kits, you usually see a row of shells in front of, or near the snare.

Remember, there were no microphones back in the old days, and even after they came around, the systems didn't work too well, and it was usually reserved for the singer. So the players had to have a real tone, one that carried to the back of the room. And the players had to be able to blend, to attack and release a note with great precision, as this helped things project, and to use different degrees of vibrato. For some reason I see vibrato as enhancing the sound in these unamplified settings. And the shells, as opposed to cymbals, seem to work with the volume levels used by the very early players.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I had a whole response just about ready to post, then POOF . . . off to the ether. I stopped to research redhotjazz for any other early-jazz recordings of I'LL BE A FRIEND WITH PLEASURE and that's what fouled me up.

I have a modest collection of sheet music, chord charts, lead sheets, and lyrics and some of my charts on this tune have the minor-6th chord in the fifth measure, others don't. I don't have the sheet music.

When I listen to Bix and His Orchestra, I hear the minor-6th chord in that phrase (and the repeats further in the tune). And, I have the correct lyrics transcribed from the recorded vocal with Bix.

BUT Al, please don't tell me you think Deezer is typical of hobbyist trad bands! I'd hate for someone reading this to click on that link, then think that us trad-enthusiasts are that bad. DAVE

 

[Al Stevens]

BUT Al, please don't tell me you think Deezer is typical of hobbyist trad bands! I'd hate for someone reading this to click on that link, then think that us trad-enthusiasts are that bad. DAVE

I've heard lots of hobby trad bands that play at about that level. The good ones are in the minority. I heard them often at trad jazz festivals when I was playing that circuit. Usually a local band.

There's a band like that in my town. Actually, theyre not as good as that beezer bunch. They work a lot because they work cheap. The patrons don't know the difference.

I went into Preservation Hall after listening to Banu Gibson's band in a New Orleans hotel lounge. This was about 20 years ago. Banu's band was very good. The old guys in PH could hardly play the form much less the music. Guess who had the best attendance.

 

[Al Stevens]

Just to add to the confusion, that Bbmi6 is really a Gmi7b5 which suggests resolution to the upcoming C7.

Sheetmusic arrangers often used that notation substitution because most amateur guitar players (for whom the chord symbols were intended) did not know how to finger the more complex G half-diminshed chord. The chords are inversions of each other. They have the same notes, so the substitution works. And when the bass player uses the Bb instead of the G as the root, it adds that extra unidentifiable something that you and I like so much.

I don't consider what sheetmusic publishers put on sheets or what composers select for chords to be sacrosanct. Many tunes had to be fixed by the players. Ain't Misbehavin' as Waller played it was unnacceptable to such players as Satch and Teagarden. They fixed it about the day it came out. The same with his Blue Turnin' Gray. The second half of Waller's bridge is downright uncomfortable to play as he wrote it.

Hoagy's Skylark has the strangest wrong-sounding chords in Hoagy's version. Virtually nobody except Hoagy played it that way. With his chords it could never have become the jazz classic it is today. The players fixed the changes to Georgia On My Mind, too. Yet his Washboard Blues, a very oddly constructed tune that has unusual chords and seems to hack meter, is perfect the way it is. Go figure.

(I have the original Paul Whiteman 78rpm disc on Washboard Blues with Hoagy playing the piano solo and singing the tune and Bix playing the hot chorus. I found the disc in an abandoned house over 50 years ago.)

 

[Merlin]

Just to add to the confusion, that Bbmi6 is really a Gmi7b5 which suggests resolution to the upcoming C7.

I'm not familiar with that particular tune, but substituting the m7b5 for the m6 is not always correct.

Root motion is important. Many older jazz tunes use a progression like this:

Eb6/Ebm6/Bb

Eb6/Cm7b5/Bb would change the root motion. Yes, you could write Cm7b5/Eb, but that's even more unwieldy.

Conversely, I know a number of old school writers who notate Cm7b5 as Ebm/C.

 

[Dave Dolson]

Al: I agree with almost everything you wrote, and I'll defer to your expertise (and others) about the technicality of chord construction. The more difficult Gmxxx you mentioned is beyond me, although I can stumble through the occasional diminished, augmented and minor 6th chords in the trad genre just fine.

I am familiar with all the tunes you listed. Washboard Blues is a doozy, alright. I've only heard one current band play it - and they did a fine job . . . Jim Cullum's band from San Antonio, but they are not what I'd call hobbyists. They are true pros.

I had commented about the accuracy of published sheet music before it all disappeared from my computer and I agree that some publications are inaccurate. Still, I consider most published sheet music to be a better reference than some current band's interpretation of an old tune. For me, maybe the best reference is when the composer recorded his own piece, but even then, the recordings can contain embellishments that weren't published. Too bad we can't go back and question the composers now. Oh, I realize that some may have been quoted in books, etc.

And, while Morton didn't discuss the way his tunes were written, his recorded interview for the Library of Congress in 1939 should be required reading for anyone interested in old jazz (much like Baby Dodds' recording about drumming - I have that on a CD).

I'll cite one example of composers playing their own material - Clarence Williams' BABY WON'T YOU PLEASE COME HOME. Listen to Williams play his own tune and you'll hear a C chord in the 7th measure of the chorus; but many bands don't play it that way. Some do, some don't.

To my ear, the C chord is a deal-breaker - don't play it and it is evidence that the players haven't listened to the original (or chose to ignore it). Fakers, as far as I'm concerned. NOT incompetent, just not schooled in the genre. The argument could be made that as long as an ensemble plays it one way or the other together, they'll sound all right. I just prefer that players come as close to the originals as possible.

My one concern is with what constitutes "trad." This was another thing I'd discussed before, then lost it. To me, TRAD means jazz that is performed true to the original recordings from the '20's - done in the same style with the same instrumentation; bands that try to emulate Oliver, early Armstrong, Bechet, Ory, Bix, Noone, and George Lewis, to name a few.

A band sounding like Condon's (Nicksieland, or Nixieland, however one chooses to spell it) is not TRAD, in my book. The Condon sound is a more modern, polished version of old jazz, in my view. That's why we (me and many trad-jazz fans) don't use the term "Dixieland" to describe our version of old jazz.

A current Condon-style band that comes to mind is FULTON STREET out of Sacto, led by Molly Ringwald's Dad, Bob Ringwald. They are a good, solid Condon-style band, but not TRAD as far as most of the Dixieland crowd I know.

I don't mean to beat the horse here, but Deezer was pathetic - the only thing TRAD about their performance was the tune itself. If that was the caliber of bands you heard on the trad-jazz festival circuit, I fear you were at the wrong festivals.

I led a band at the first Sacramento Jubilee in 1974 - a festival which started the trad-jazz festival thing. I recall that at the 1974 Sacramento festival, the band I led was followed by Turk Murphy's San Francisco Jazz Band - a more TRAD band would be hard to find. In retrospect, I wish the band I had was a better band, but I fixed that in the following years. My band that year wasn't any better than Deezer, but at least it was TRAD.

I led bands at the next 13 Sacramento Jubilees, as well as all of the rest of the west-coast festivals (Pismo Beach, Three Rivers, San Diego, Monterey, etc., etc.). I don't recall ever hearing a band as rough as Deezer at a festival (except the band I led the first year at Sacto). Locally, I have.

True, not all the bands at trad-jazz festivals were what I'd call TRAD, but at least they played their version of "Dixieland" competently. DAVE

 

[Al Stevens]

I'm not familiar with that particular tune, but substituting the m7b5 for the m6 is not always correct.

That's true, depending of course on the harmonic context, what the resolution will be.

The m7b5 is not the substitution in this case, however. The m6 is.

 

[Al Stevens]

I am familiar with all the tunes you listed. Washboard Blues is a doozy, alright. I've only heard one current band play it - and they did a fine job . . . Jim Cullum's band from San Antonio, but they are not what I'd call hobbyists. They are true pros.

It was one of Art Hodes' signature piano solos.

Still, I consider most published sheet music to be a better reference than some current band's interpretation of an old tune.

The David Littlefield school of harmonization. We can agree to disagree on that one.

And, while Morton didn't discuss the way his tunes were written, his recorded interview for the Library of Congress in 1939 should be required reading for anyone interested in old jazz

When I was a teenager I went to the Library of Congress and asked them to let me listen to those Morton recordings. They turned me away,

I'll cite one example of composers playing their own material - Clarence Williams' BABY WON'T YOU PLEASE COME HOME. Listen to Williams play his own tune and you'll hear a C chord in the 7th measure of the chorus; but many bands don't play it that way. Some do, some don't.

To my ear, the C chord is a deal-breaker - don't play it and it is evidence that the players haven't listened to the original (or chose to ignore it). Fakers, as far as I'm concerned. NOT incompetent, just not schooled in the genre.

Or schooled in the genre but would rather play it differently. Replicating a composer's mistake for the sake of purity is not the best musical decision. In this case, there are two ways it is played, and whether you hear C7 or G7 (We are in F, aren't we?) depends on interpretation. After all, this is jazz music. Why stick to the record? That's already been done.

The argument could be made that as long as an ensemble plays it one way or the other together, they'll sound all right. I just prefer that players come as close to the originals as possible.

As long as you agree that others aren't required by the jazz police to adhere to your preferences.

My one concern is with what constitutes "trad."
A band sounding like Condon's (Nicksieland, or Nixieland, however one chooses to spell it) is not TRAD, in my book.

Not many people use the nicksieland nomenclature any more. Like it or not, contemporary jazz musicians do not consider what is called dixieland to be jazz, and they refer to bebop as "traditional jazz." Music evolves. So does language.

...They are a good, solid Condon-style band, but not TRAD as far as most of the Dixieland crowd I know.

Did I ever mention Anna Wahler's STAD designation?

If that was the caliber of bands you heard on the trad-jazz festival circuit, I fear you were at the wrong festivals.

I played at many of them, most of the big ones when I was in Bill Allred's band in the 1990s.

True, not all the bands at trad-jazz festivals were what I'd call TRAD, but at least they played their version of "Dixieland" competently. DAVE

Maybe I just hold them to a higher personal standard. Well, not higher. Different is a better choice of words.

 

[Dave Dolson]

I fear that what I'm writing is filled with inconsistencies and contradictions, but like that U.S. Supreme Court Justice once said, "I know TRAD when I hear it." Hard to define but easy for me to recognize. (That was a bit tongue-in-cheek for those of you who may want to sharpshoot me for that quote)

I've met Ann Wahler before (if she is the same person I recall from the Potomac River jazz group). I don't know about her STAD designation.

Yes, BABY WON'T YOU PLEASE COME HOME is usually played in F and the chord in the 7th measure is a straight C, not a C7, if I hear it correctly.

And I don't consider Williams' recording of his own tune to be a mistake, no more so than I consider Bechet's recording of SI TU VOIS MA MERE to be a mistake when his band played a Bb chord in the second phrase while many bands today use an F7.

True, this is all jazz and thus subject to interpretation, but I guess I'm just too narrow minded to like an interpretation that strays from original renditions, at least by small-combo recreations of the original bands.

And, I understand that when an improv combo is playing like the Hot Five or Seven or the Wolverines or Oliver's Creole Jazz Band or Morton's Red Hot Peppers, there will obviously be differences in the overall sound because each current player is improvising (unless the combo is playing a strict chart based on someone's transcription of the recording).

I like to play PERDIDO STREET BLUES like Johnny Dodds did it. I don't follow what he did note-for-note. But at the end of the tune, our jazz fans recognize the effort and our adherence to the recording even though it wasn't perfect. For sure, we don't stray from the chord structure or the tune's road map.

A big band, working off charts prepared by an arranger or transcriber (the original thrust of this thread) could make it work. Many big bands played the same tune differently. I don't see why an improvisational combo (not reading charts) playing to recreate the sound, would stray far from the original. Again, I'll admit I'm VERY narrow-minded about this stuff and it has always been the basis of discussions whenever I get into it with someone who takes a less rigid position on the whole issue. We agree to disagree.

To me its like an R&R cover band doing ROCK AROUND THE CLOCK but not sticking to the original arrangement or style. Oh sure, it can be done and has been done, but I don't care for it.

When I lived in Whitefish, MT an Argentine band came through the area on tour (The Fenix Jazz Band from Buenos Aires). Our local band was on the show with Fenix (alternating sets) and I was asked to sit in with the Argentine band for a few tunes. They were surprised that a local Montana boy knew their stuff, but it worked fine. One tune they played was George Lewis' BURGUNDY STREET BLUES.

What makes that tune so good was the way Lewis did it (many times, too - and they all varied in some way). Yet, Fenix didn't play it at all like Lewis and thus the tune changed from that mournful, poignant clarinet feature to just another "blues in C". I played it with them but was disappointed because I believed this band could have really done it much better - and true to the Lewis style. As it turned out, it was just another blues.

We also did KANSAS CITY MAN BLUES and it was much closer to Bechet's first recording - and I think it was a much more successful performance that evening. The crowd did, too.

As far as modernists usurping the term TRAD for early bebop, I know about that. Why not allow us real traditionalists one word we can use (and no, NOT "crap") to define our tastes? This is like young kids thinking history began when they were born. Geez . . .

Fun discussion, though. DAVE

 

[Al Stevens]

I've met Ann Wahler before (if she is the same person I recall from the Potomac River jazz group). I don't know about her STAD designation.

Anna Wahler and her husband Fred were not musicians, but they were stalwarts in the Potomac River Jazz Club. They founded the Buck Creek Jazz Band named after either a street or a creek near their home, I forget which. Anna coined the acronym STAD to apply to any musical rendition that did not fit her view of what constitutes authentic Dixieland music. It stands for:

"S**t, that ain't Dixieland."

Anna and Fred are gone now. They were fine people, fiercely dedicated to their music. I last saw her at the Sun Valley festival in the mid 1990s.

And I don't consider Williams' recording of his own tune to be a mistake...

Nor do I. I believe he did it that way on purpose.

...They were surprised that a local Montana boy knew their stuff, but it worked fine.

I played a trad festival in Helena in June, 1990. The cool thing about that trip was that I reunited with Monty Mountjoy who had been the drummer with the Firehouse Five Plus Two and with whom I travelled in the 1970s in Gene Mayl's Dixieland Rhythm Kings. Monty was born in Helena and returned for the festival and to see the town of his birth once again while he still could. He hadn't been there since he was a small child. He was frail and no longer playing. We had a nice reunion. He died soon afterward, but I don't remember exactly when.

 

[Al Stevens]

About the changes in harmonies in swing music over the years. Something similar happened to Dixieland.

The trombone and clarinet swapped voicings during phrased ensemble passages.

In earlier forms of the music, the clarinet typically played a third above the melody while the trombone played bass lines with lots of one-fives and glisses, a style that came to be known as "tailgate" trombone.

Most prominent white swing players of the 30s started by playing Dixieland. The Dorseys, Goodman, Krupa, Teagarden, etc. Those guys moved the trombone to the third above the melody part and the clarinet played rhythmic patterns above that. Just how the music evolved, and it's probably because Dorsey and Teagarden could play the upper register clearly and their harmonies sounded sweet in the upper spot. And because the string bass gradually took over what the trombone used to do harmonically.

I was playing cornet in a band with John Skillman, an old-school clarinet player on one side, and Glen Sullivan, a Teagarden-style trombone player on the other. John leaned over to me and said, "Tell Glen to quit playing my notes." As I leaned over to Glen he said, "Tell John to quit playing my notes."