Fake Selmers

pete

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
About 30 years from now, someone will have a headache trying to determine what is and isn't a Selmer. They'll write to Yanagisawa's Yamaha-Selmer plant and get a virtual-presence response in the form of, "We have no information on that model."

While searching for something completely different, I came across Selmer's Facebook page. They have a couple albums regarding fake Selmers being sold on tradetang.com and other eBay-knockoff websites. Hey, I had mentioned something simular about the Taiwanese-made SML 400's that were popping up, a few years back, but this is some real enterprisin' goin' on.

In any event, it's somewhat amusing to see a "Selmer" Reference 54 soprano and purple lacquer Firebird horns. Hey, curved sopranos, too!

(Something that folks might notice is that there are some website names listed in the auctions on tradetang.com. They're the folks that have spammed me/this forum/others with the list of a bazillion instruments with "incredible" discounts, like a brand new S80 III alto for $5.)
 
and don't forget they've used real Selmer pictures. I recall posting about tradetang and them using a Reference horn in a pic but was for sale for an incredible low amount.

I wonder what kind of pressure Selmer is giving ebay as many of their pictures in that album show eBay sales .. unless of course they are on the Chinese ebay which looks eeriely similar but isn't.

a purple Ref ... hmm ..... for the right price it might be a neat buy :p
 
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I think that some of the key "pearls" look rather pretty, too.

While I know that the horns are knock-offs, it'd be interesting to review one.
 
Here's another one. This time it's a fake Mark VI soprano. The interesting things here are a) it definitely looks like an old horn and b) it's got an overall S80 look. In any case, it's a very elaborate fake.

I've also gotta say that Google Translate kinda choked on all the German ....
 
That soprano is a fairly well-done fake, though. Photograph it from a couple good angles and throw in comments like, "The soprano Mark VI never lived up to the fame of its alto and tenor siblings," and you've got a sale. However, if I was doing the fake, I would have made it a higher s/n and do a comparison of that horn with an S80. Same with the G# cluster.
 
I don't get the Mark VI soprano. If someone was really interested in a Mark VI, wouldn't they educate themselves on what these horns looked like? There are so many tell-tale signs that this is not a Mark VI that it doesn't take more than a glance to recognize it for what it is. I might not immediately jump to the conclusion that it's a fake, but I would immediately recognize it as not being a VI. From there then I'd being taking a closer look with a critical and suspicious eye.

I got a nice, purple Rolex. Anyone wanna' see? I'll sell it to you for the bargain basement price of only 30K. ;-) :emoji_smile:
 
of course, unless you are a high school student and think you have a good idea of what it is. A soprano looks like what? A Selmer logo looks like what ?

Come across one in a pawn shop .. and who knows.
Of course, we could easily say the same thing about relacquered saxes too. You should always educate yourself ? even if some relacs are pretty good!?!?

Self-education about vintage instruments unfortunately is of the mindset of the person doing the research. They may think they understand as they have learned some of a totality. Unfortunately, even with the internet it still requires the researcher to understand what they are reading, which in itself may require some experience.

I still recall when I thought there were Selmer mk IV, V, VI and VIIs out there. They were misspelled in the classifieds of the newspaper, I even recall doing research on it which was scant back then.

So experience helps research, and one "interprets" what they read which can further skew research knowledge.

Plus, add to that that so many people think they've found a "bargain" a "needle in the haystack" ...
 
Are y'all talking Lincolns? The Mark VI really didn't do that well. There were a few Mark VIIs ....

If the buyer was appropriately educated about the horn, he should know that the VI soprano wasn't that great.
 
pete said:
If the buyer was appropriately educated about the horn, he should know that the VI soprano wasn't that great.
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I happen to disagree. While I realize that I'm in the minority here, I play the VI soprano because of its SOUND. I don't care about the ergos. Hey, I play vintage horns, so the ergos are nothing for me. The sound wins me over every time. YMMV of course... And Pete, don't you even be thinking Coltrane, OK? ;-)
 
Helen said:
I happen to disagree. While I realize that I'm in the minority here, I play the VI soprano because of its SOUND. I don't care about the ergos. Hey, I play vintage horns, so the ergos are nothing for me. The sound wins me over every time. YMMV of course... And Pete, don't you even be thinking Coltrane, OK? ;-)
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Aww. You didn't even let me do the setup!

Anyhow, I don't have a great opinion as to the tone of the VI soprano -- I thought it was adequate -- the problem that I have is that it's rather difficult to play in tune. Others have made the same comment about the intonation, too.

Y'know, at some level, it's difficult to ask people if they prefer the VI soprano over, say, a Yani. There's not that large a population of soprano players and, from that, you'd have to ask, "Did you get a VI because everyone told you that the VI is the best thing since sliced Kenny G? Or did you get a VI because that's what Kenny G/Coltrane/Pete play(s)(ed)? Or did you get a VI because it really did outperform the Yani/vintage horn you played it against?"
 
As far as the intonation goes, yes, that was a problem, and Selmer addressed that by changing the bore taper at the neck end in the later models. You can see it in this photo of my VI (277XXX), when compared to this earlier version (97XXX). In my photo it looks like a dent just above the highest front key (high F#), but it's not. I'd have to reshoot the horn at the proper angle to show the taper best.

I'm not sure at what serial # they made this change, but that fixed the intonation issues sometimes associated with the sopranos. Pete you'd likely know the answer.

As far as comparing them to other sopranos goes, well when I bought mine--back when dinosaurs walked the earth--there weren't that many options. It was in 1981, and Kenny G wasn't yet a pop cultural icon. The university I attended had specific horn requirements--or at least non-requirements--like my Super 20 tenor was verboten, which is how I ended up with my VI. The Mark VI was the choice of most of my university profs, and I ended up with all VIs. It was a no brainer. I got them all for cheap (since they were all slightly used).

Over the past 30 years I've played all kinds of brands of both new and vintage sops, but I still prefer the sound of the VI. (For a straight soprano that is.) I do have a vintage Pan Am curvy (a Conn, sans the rolled tone holes) that has a vastly different tone. Whether it's because it's a Conn, or because it's made in 1927, or because it's... yes, I'm going to say it... curved... or all of, or none of the above, I couldn't tell you. I can tell you though that it has a vastly different tone that is extremely malleable, and can be made to sound extremely raunchy and dirty. I like it for certain applications (such as blues), and my Mark VI for others (jazz).

Oh, and FWIW, the VI has much better intonation than the Conn, but hey, if I haven't got my soprano chops in shape for a show, I just use more distortion. ;-) ... The advantages of playing electric. :emoji_relaxed:
 
If it's got a Pan-Am patent number, it's not the same as a New Wonder.

Your info on the VI sopranos is intriguing. I'll try to follow up on that. I do see a small bulge above the altissimo F# key, but it's so slight, I'm not sure if I'm seeing it right. Research will continue!


As far as vintage sopranos go, I'd bet that a Buescher has the best intonation.
 
I'll see if I can take a close-up of the area later today. I've searched the 'Net for a shot of the area on other horns, but can't find one with the detail any better. It's very slight, and very hard to photograph.
 
I'd play a VI soprano too if i could afford one. The only thing that I cannot live with though is the palm keys. I just can't seem to play those. So sooner or later i plan on getting a first version of the Super Action 80 soprano.

In speaking with Kessler once we talked about the bore differences of the Yani vs Selmer and how the Yanis were easier to play as it was smaller cone flair .. or something like that.
 
This one's pretty, but fake.

Then you have the 2011 Selmer Mark VI SE. I seem to have missed this model when I researched the Mark VI horns ....

How 'bout a Sel-Mar?

Maybe a Salma?

One of the more amusing things about these ads is that several of them say, quite specifically, "These horns are not originals. They are made in China. They're good horns, though!"
 
Same thing happens with guitars (I play guitar too). There are more fake Les Pauls out there than Mark VI's -- probably only because there are more guitarists.

We sell genuine gibson at low price, you betcha! An it come with new strings!

And you can find those Givson, Ginson and other typo brands as well as the Selma and Selmar in the sax department.

A novice delving into collectible "anythings" is skating on thin ice. Whether it is a sax, Rembrandt, or Louis XIV breakfront, if you don't know yourself, get an expert opinion before parting with your cash, check or plastic.

My father left me with a Stradivarius violin. He knew it was a fake, student model, it even has the Strad tag inside (along with a stamp "Made In Germany"). His parents bought it for a few dollars as a student violin when he was a child. I don't think these were sold to be fakes though, but more as a 'strad model' than the real thing. But I bet I could sell it on eBay as the real thing -- but I wouldn't want to be around after the sale.

And as far as the average user is concerned, the VI isn't necessary. I had a VI tenor for years (bought it new in 1960 give or take a year). The tone was nice but the intonation wasn't. I liked my Couf Superba better in both the tone and intonation department. I miss that horn more than my VI.

On the other hand, I wouldn't part with my 1925 King alto, the intonation is poor but it has the voice of an angel.

And the novice won't be able to get great tone out of a VI anyway. A novice sax player would do better getting a Barone, Mac, or other Taiwan horn. (My new Mac Classic is actually quite a fine horn).

So if you want a real Selmer, and you want to be sure; unless you are an expert, get a new one from an authorized dealer.

But we all know that already.

There is one born every minute.

Wanna buy my father's Strad? I'll sell it for a million bucks. Comes complete with case and bow.
 
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