I got another Patricola

[stevethemusicman]

Hi All,

Well, I did it again. I went and bought a Patricola CL2 Virtuoso in Rosewood. If you remember I bought one over a year ago and then sent it back. Well the time (and fortunatly the money) came that I wanted a new instrument. I've been playing my R13 since I started playing again about 2 years ago and was about to purchase a new R13.

I spent hours in a music store trying new ones. I loved the way the new R13's played. I also tried a Selmer and Yamaha (I don't remember the models but they were in the same class as the R13). Before I purchased it I decided to try the Patricola again. So, I looked up prices on the web and ordered it. It came today and it's an incredible instrument.

I bought it in Rosewood. It plays so nice. The sound is rich or deep (depending on which barrel you use) and the action is really fast. I'm kind of happy that I didn't keep the first one. I needed to get my chops up before I bought a brand new one and now I did and I'm thrilled.

If any of you are going to purchase a new Clarinet I'd recommend you try the Patricola first. THe place I bought it from ( and most places on the web) gives me 45 day return policy so if you wanted to try it before purchasing buy it through one of these stores.

More to come in other posts about what I've been doing for the last year.

Steve

 

[Gandalfe]

How did the price compare to the other instruments? Was it all about the sound for you, or did you also consider the inherent intonation a key factor in the selection of a new instrument?

 

[stevethemusicman]

The New Patricola

How did the price compare to the other instruments? Was it all about the sound for you, or did you also consider the inherent intonation a key factor in the selection of a new instrument?

When I had the last Patricola that I sent back I checked all the tonality with a tuner and it was right on so I had no reservations in ordering another. Again, I went through all the notes with a tuner both with my R13 and the Patricola and they were both the same (give or take a cent and depending on my mouth at that moment )

The sound of both of them are almost the same. I think the Rosewood gives a brighter sound but I can also deepen it with the other barrel. What I'm really loving is the action of the keys. It boosted up my technique a bit and just plain feels right.

The addition of the Eb alternate key is a blessing and also a non-blessing. I found it (the last time too) to get in my way. However I believe that it can only help me with my technique in that I always had my fingers too high off the B key to begin with. When the fingers are placed write it does not get in the way.

The price is actually better than the equivlent Buffet. It was $2895.00 (I got a competitive price and they matched it) delivered and it has silver plated keys and is more like the Buffet Tosca than the R13.

My biggest critique, my wife, says that my sound has improved a lot with the patricola and I agree it is better.

All in all I'm very pleased with the instrument and hopefully when I can afford it will buy another in Eb or A or C as needed. Actually if I win the lottery I'll buy them all.

One things I love (other than the sound and technique) is the color. It looks sooooo good and it weighs much less than the Buffet.

Steve

 

[SOTSDO]

One of my dreams back in the days after my first wife convinced me to sell off all of my saxophones in order that we might buy a new car for cash was to someday own a complete set of saxophones, all Selmer and all new.

I had a SATB set, bought when I was really flush with money from working my ass off after school, during weekends and all summer long. But, they were just sitting there, gathering dust, and we really needed a second new car.

The bass was rare back then, although I almost picked up an old Conn bass for all of $600. But, I would have loved to play a new one, where all the keys worked and it didn't smell like the bottom of the pit elevator shaft at the local municipal auditorium. (The Conn did smell exactly like that, as I learned from many a long evening sitting on the elevator platform.)

However, that was before I discovered Yamaha horns, and it's unlikely that I'll a) actually need all five of them, and b) find a Yamaha bass sax. So much for dreams...

 

[stevethemusicman]

One of my dreams back in the days after my first wife convinced me to sell off all of my saxophones in order that we might buy a new car for cash was to someday own a complete set of saxophones, all Selmer and all new.

I had a SATB set, bought when I was really flush with money from working my ass off after school, during weekends and all summer long. But, they were just sitting there, gathering dust, and we really needed a second new car.

The bass was rare back then, although I almost picked up an old Conn bass for all of $600. But, I would have loved to play a new one, where all the keys worked and it didn't smell like the bottom of the pit elevator shaft at the local municipal auditorium. (The Conn did smell exactly like that, as I learned from many a long evening sitting on the elevator platform.)

However, that was before I discovered Yamaha horns, and it's unlikely that I'll a) actually need all five of them, and b) find a Yamaha bass sax. So much for dreams...

I've seen a bass sax real cheap at one or two places. Write to me off line and I'll let you know where. I don't think I'm allowed to say the names of stores on this board (or is it another board) ho hum.

Steve

 

[Gandalfe]

Helen reports regularly on her blog about the prices of new bass saxes. There are some new bass saxes that you could pay for two for less than I'd sell my Buescher bass sax. I've seen reports from people who've bought one of these instruments who put a lot of money into fixing the instrument and feel that even then, they got a good deal. I'm not so sure.

 

[pete]

However, that was before I discovered Yamaha horns, and it's unlikely that I'll a) actually need all five of them, and b) find a Yamaha bass sax. So much for dreams...

Yamaha doesn't make a bass, of course, or a ...

* Bb sopranissimo
* Eb sopranino
* F or G mezzo-soprano
* Contrabass

(I've left out the C instruments, of course.)

... However, I'm told that, for modern higher saxes, Yanagisawa is better than Yamaha (and for the sopranissimo, you have to get an Eppelsheim). Your mileage may vary.

As far as the best modern bass, that's going to be an interesting discussion. Everyone I've seen that's bought an Eppelsheim has been very happy with it, but I also HAVEN'T seen any buzz on the Selmer, Orsi or the custom Keilwerths.

 

[clarnibass]

Re Patricola A clarinets, one problem I found on these was a very stuffy throat Bb, enough to discourange me from buying that instrument. If I remember I tried three of them, both rosewood and grenadilla, and all had the problem. Though this wasn't a problem on the Bb clarinets.

 

[stevethemusicman]

Throat Sounds on Patricola

Re Patricola A clarinets, one problem I found on these was a very stuffy throat Bb, enough to discourange me from buying that instrument. If I remember I tried three of them, both rosewood and grenadilla, and all had the problem. Though this wasn't a problem on the Bb clarinets.

On my Patricola the Bb is no more stuffy as others I have and played. As in all my instruments I try to use the alternate Bb where ever possible. So far the Patricola has a smoother register change than the R13.

This instrument is about 4 days old now. I'm waiting to see how it changes when I've played it for a couple of months. The Rosewood certainly makes for a different sound.

Seeing that you do instrument repairs do you agree that in keeping the Patricola maintained is walnut or Almound oil is the best way to go. And, how often would you recommend oiling it.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[clarnibass]

My experience with rosewood clarinets was that there wasn't any difference in sound as a result of that i.e. the differences were varies and also simlar to differences between non-rosewood but different clarinets.

Re oiling, my opinion is that the only way really showing oiling is helpful would be by very serious research. No player has done that AFAIK. Some clarinets cracking with or without oiling prove nothing. Also the type of oil to use is not possible for players to know. So, I simply choose to believe someone like Omar (www.doctorsprod.com) which says their oil has better anti oxidation, so this is what I use and not any regualr vegetable oil.

IMO without the research mentione,d it's really possible to know if a clarinet needs to be oiled. So I recommend oiling in a few situations. If the clarinet just looks dry. If I wash a clarinet, oil from the top layer will be washed and it will look dry. Or if someone wants me to oil their clarinets and I can't convince them it is unecessary if I think it is unecessary.

I usually see clarinet showing signs being dry every 2 to (let's say) 15 years, so in general anywhere between those two numbers is often I would oil. Only very rarely I have oiled more often than that. Sometimes only some parts, usually tenons and sockets, are dry, so then I might oil just those areas.

 

[stevethemusicman]

Oiling the Clarinet

My experience with rosewood clarinets was that there wasn't any difference in sound as a result of that i.e. the differences were varies and also simlar to differences between non-rosewood but different clarinets.

Re oiling, my opinion is that the only way really showing oiling is helpful would be by very serious research. No player has done that AFAIK. Some clarinets cracking with or without oiling prove nothing. Also the type of oil to use is not possible for players to know. So, I simply choose to believe someone like Omar (www.doctorsprod.com) which says their oil has better anti oxidation, so this is what I use and not any regualr vegetable oil.

IMO without the research mentione,d it's really possible to know if a clarinet needs to be oiled. So I recommend oiling in a few situations. If the clarinet just looks dry. If I wash a clarinet, oil from the top layer will be washed and it will look dry. Or if someone wants me to oil their clarinets and I can't convince them it is unecessary if I think it is unecessary.

I usually see clarinet showing signs being dry every 2 to (let's say) 15 years, so in general anywhere between those two numbers is often I would oil. Only very rarely I have oiled more often than that. Sometimes only some parts, usually tenons and sockets, are dry, so then I might oil just those areas.

I tend to agree with you about the sound. I think that there is a small difference because of the wood but the biggest difference is more with the player and of course the bore and the type of wood have some impact, albeit smaller on the overall sound.

On oiling though I think it can make a long term difference and I'm not sure how much or if it is better or worse for the sound. (BTW, I'm going to purchase the bore doctor oil for the Patricola) When you look at the physics of the sound traveling through the instrument there must be some impact on a heavily oiled piece of wood verses a more dryer piece of wood. But again, it is a smaller difference that I don't think makes an instrument better or worse than any other.

In my case I bought the Patricola for two reasons. First and foremost I love the color of the rosewood and that is the major reason I even considered a Patricola. The second reason is that I really wanted a new Clarinet. After playing the Buffet (I own a 2004 used model), Selmer, Yamaha, LeBlanc and the Patricola I found that I like the action of the keys. The Patricola has a tighter action (If I'm describing it right) than the Buffet. The other three have an action I wasn't happy with. It's hard to pinpoint what the difference but for the most part it feels like the tone holes are slightly larger than both the Patricola and the Buffet.

Getting back to the actual brands of clarinets I have to say that they are all great instruments and you should not be concerned that one is better than the other. After all is a Mustang better than a Camero? No, they are different but good cars (I'm talking about the monster engines here).

You mentioned washing the Clarinet. I'm interested to know how you wash it. That is something I've never done. How often should it be cleaned? I appreciate any information you can give me on that.

Thanks,

Steve Lewis

 

[pete]

So, I simply choose to believe someone like Omar (www.doctorsprod.com) which says their oil has better anti oxidation, so this is what I use and not any regualr vegetable oil.

I'm not sure I got that. Their oil prevents rust better? On a wooden horn?

There have been a few studies about oiling clarinets. We discussed them in another thread.

 

[Franklin Liao]

Ahh...

Question. Is the bore lined with the rosewood Patricola? I recall that some rosewood clarinets are lined, with early Rossi being an example.

 

[stevethemusicman]

Ahh...

Question. Is the bore lined with the rosewood Patricola? I recall that some rosewood clarinets are lined, with early Rossi being an example.

The clarinet is made from one piece of Rosewood. Actually the entire clarinet from barrel to bell is on contigious piece of rosewood. The grain matches from top to bottom. Oh, maybe the barrell is different let me look.

Just checked. The B1 barrel (the main barrel) is made from the same piece of rosewood as the rest of the clarinet. The secondary barrel is, of course, made from another piece.

Steve

 

[clarnibass]

I tend to agree... and the type of wood have some impact, albeit smaller on the overall sound.

So actually sounds like you tend to disagree, because from the rosewood clarinets I've tried (most of which were Patricolas), I found no difference possible to say was caused by the wood.

On oiling though I think it can make a long term difference and I'm not sure how much or if it is better or worse for the sound.

That's the type of opinion I see some (even many) players believe without any real evidence for it. Like many things in the clarinet world.

The Patricola has a tighter action (If I'm describing it right) than the Buffet. The other three have an action I wasn't happy with. It's hard to pinpoint what the difference but for the most part it feels like the tone holes are slightly larger than both the Patricola and the Buffet.

Tighter action usually means less/no free play, which Patricola is not better or worse than other companies. It can be repaired anyway. I guess you mean the size, shape and position of the keys are better and more comfortable for you. That's very likely to happen, I also found some companies of clarinets are more comfortable for me than others.

After all is a Mustang better than a Camero? No, they are different but good cars (I'm talking about the monster engines here).

I know so little about cars and next to nothing about old ones (I'm assuming these are old models right?)

You mentioned washing the Clarinet. I'm interested to know how you wash it. That is something I've never done. How often should it be cleaned? I appreciate any information you can give me on that.

I wash the same way most people do. Remove all the keys, then wash in not-too-cold and not-too-hot water with dish soap and relatively soft brushes, inside the bore and tone holes too. In general I wash a clarinet in a few situations:

• If I need to do a type of work that would just be too gross without washing, because the clarinet is just so dirty. This is very rare.
• If I'm disassembling it anyway for a different reason like for a repad/overhaul and it's dirty then I'll wash it.
• If it's not so dirty but has a specific type of dirt that is important to remove but impossible without washing. An example is sometimes 'tone hole bird nests'. These are dirt 'rings' at the bottom of tone holes that cause notes to play flat and stuffy and are sometimes very hard if not impossible to remove without washing.

I'm not sure I got that. Their oil prevents rust better? On a wooden horn?

Maybe I used the wrong word? Not sure in English. I don't mean antyhing about the clarient, but the oil itself. If you leave something like e.g. olive oil out, or you can see that sometimes near the bottle, it can become a bit of a sticky goo. AFAIK this is from the oxygen in the air (maybe something else?). Doctor claimed to use stronger things to prevent that. I have compared by leaving Dcotor's oil in the air to check.

There have been a few studies about oiling clarinets. We discussed them in another thread.

Are they serious studies, comparing many clarinet in same conditions, some oiled and some not? Do you have links?

 

[Franklin Liao]

I guess what I meant to ask is if a lining material such as delrin is used in the bore to preserve dimensional stability of the bore, but the information about the clarinet made from the same billet mostly is good to know.

clarnibass, you and I have both seen how heated the material argument has been on bboard. I personally don't want to make a conclusion since my own feelings are anecdotal. Going from one clarinet to another of the same model alone would lead to differences in response, let along a hodgepodge of various horns.

If Alastair Hanson pulls through with making those 3 C clarinets in acetal, grenadilla and ebonite, I will try to get as much detail as possible on the construction variance between these supposedly identical horn in dimension. I am woefully inadequate to give an acoustic assessment at any rate, so I might as well focus myself onto documenting what I get and ask the pros about how to approach the issue of sound objectively.

Moving on back to Patricola. How is the level of finish on the horn?

 

[stevethemusicman]

Patricola Finish

Moving on back to Patricola. How is the level of finish on the horn?

The finish is glossy. Not as glossy as patent leather shoes but also not a mat sheen. It's hard to describe the actual finish but when I rub my hand on it there is a smooth cool feeling and I don't feel the grain. Of course when the instrument has been played and in a warmer environment I guess I could take out the word "cool feeling" I hope I described it good enough.

Steve

 

[SOTSDO]

Making a clarinet from one billet of wood of any kind is going to be difficult unless the clarinet is made in one continous piece (i.e., without any "jointing"). As soon as "jointing" is employed, there are some cuts and turning operations on the various joints that preclude the continuity of the various pieces once the clarinet is reassembled.

For example, take the bell to lower joint connection. While sawing through the billet at the particular point where the bell and body meet works just fine to separate the two chunks of the billet, there's still the little matter of the tenon and socket joint to be addressed.

The socket is easy enough to handle - the bell is turned to its final dimensions once the socket opening is bored. So far, so good.

The real problem arises with the end of the lower joint. Since the cut was made at the "division point" between the bell and lower joint, the wood that would have gone into forming the tenon at the bottom of the lower joint was severed and left in the portion of the bell section that you bored out for the socket.

So, by cutting off the bell piece from the remainder of the billet, you are severing the additional wood protruding beyond the bottom of the lower joint piece, thereby cutting off the section needed to form the tenon at the bottom of the lower joint. And, by continuing the process of doing this up the rest of the horn, you continue to cut off the wood needed to form the connections between the pieces of the horn.

There is a way around this. Instead of turning the end of the lower joint down to form the tenon, instead bore out the interior of the lower joint and then glue in a tenon. However, this would involve weakening the already-relatively thin wood at the end of the lower joint, making for a very weak piece in the whole scheme of things.

However, I doubt that Patricola's fabricators are doing all of these boring and tenon gluing steps - it's just not consistent with a high quality product.

Instead, the graining within a piece of wood extend more or less through the entire piece (if it is relatively straight grained) in the same fashion. With care, pieces from near the same places in the same piece could have the grain appear to line up as if they were cut from the same piece without a gap.

By the way, none of the joints on the Selmer instruments in my collection (eight or nine of them) have aligned wood grain.

 

[stevethemusicman]

Making a clarinet from one billet of wood of any kind is going to be difficult unless the clarinet is made in one continous piece (i.e., without any "jointing").

I took a closer look at the clarinet and you are correct about the bell. They did a great job of matching the grains but they could have been made from another piece of the same or different stocks. However the B1 barrel to the upper joint seem exactly matched and the upper joint to the lower joint seem like the same patterns. Of course being biased about the beauty of my instrument I might be seeing what I want to see.

If you are really interested I'll take some digital images of the 3 upper sections so you can see for yourself and perhaps prove me right or wrong.

Thank you all for adding to my knowledge base.

Steve

 

[clarnibass]

However the B1 barrel to the upper joint seem exactly matched and the upper joint to the lower joint seem like the same patterns. Of course being biased about the beauty of my instrument I might be seeing what I want to see.

To have the wood continue exactly as the original block is only possible if the tenons are made seperately and then glued to the joint. If the tenons are one piece with the joints, which is what almost all makers do, there is a piece missing and it is not possible that the wood is the exact continuation. But it's possible that even with the piece missing it is close enough to look almost exactly the same, depending on the texture of the area they cut.