I've been told that this is a Selmer Paris Bass Clarinet 33

trpt-teacher

I've been told that if this is an "old" model 33, it may be one of the best Bass Clarinets ever made. How can I determine if it's an Old or New model?

S/N C67xx

Would anyone know it's approximate value as I'd like to sell it... Selmer3.JPGSelmer1.JPGSelmer2.JPG
 
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I'm not sure when the old vs new cutover is, but it's from the mid 1980s.
Nice horn regardless, though.
 
Here are a couple "for what it's worth" comments that'll hold you over until someone more knowledgable about Selmer bass clarinets comes by:

There's a Model 67 that was recently sold on eBay that has a serial number about 1000 off of yours. Also note the lower keys on the right side of the horn above the bell: the eBay 67 and your horn have a couple of "fine tuning" screws. Here's a Model 33 from USAHorn. No fine tuning screws. (Here's a new model 67 to take a peek at.)

On some 67s, "67" is stamped on the bell section, right below where the bell connects to the lower joint. It's on the back.

So, @Steve can probably confirm if I'm right or not. Considering Quinn's got a low C bass for sale, @Gandalfe can probably tell you if the horn Quinn's selling is a 33 or something earlier. I also think Gandalfe had/has a 67 bass.
 
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pete said:
There's a Model 67 that was recently sold on eBay that has a serial number about 1000 off of yours.
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Is it really? The 67, as you mention later, is the new low C Privilege. AFAIK they never had another model called 67 but it's possible they have.
The confusing thing is that they sometimes used numbers in different countries. I'm pretty sure I remember that the model 37 was called 25 in some countries in Europe.

pete said:
On some 67s, "67" is stamped on the bell section, right below where the bell connects to the lower joint. It's on the back.
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I've never heard of a 67 until the new Privilege, do you have a link that shows the 67 written anywhere on bass clarinets older than the 35/37 (i.e. the "33" model)?

Selmer made a few changes to the 33 model along its run so I don't think there's exactly a new version and an old version. There are a few different version and that matters a lot less than the specific clarinet.
 
clarnibass said:
Is it really? The 67, as you mention later, is the new low C Privilege. AFAIK they never had another model called 67 but it's possible they have.
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Y'know, you're making me put more work in this thread than I wanted :p.

Abbreviations: Priv=Privilege. OP=Original Poster, i.e. trpt-teacher. BC=Bass Clarinet.

==========

Here's another non-Priv model 67. Well, that's what the seller calls it, at least. IMO, you definitely could argue that there was a bass clarinet model after the 33 and before the Priv. I'm not planning on doing a point-by-point comparison of the horns I've linked to that people call "67s" but don't have the Priv stamp, because that really doesn't interest me and I wouldn't be able to measure the bore, anyway. As I said, I await someone with more Selmer BC knowledge. All I can say is that the horns folks are calling "67s" and don't have the "Priv" stamp look more similar to a Priv than the 33. OP's horn looks more like these non-Priv 67s.

I'd say, "Write to Selmer to get the bottom line," but I think we've successfully proven that Selmer really isn't that great of a source for info, except if you want to ask them where to buy a new horn.

Also, FWIW, a lot of folks say that a Model 31 is a Model 33 and vice-versa. Again, I'm not sufficiently interested to do more research on it, but I think that the Model 31 is probably the low Eb BC and the 33 is the low C BC. Or someone just got confused and the 31 is the Bb contra before the 41.

do you have a link that shows the 67 written anywhere on bass clarinets
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Stamped on the bell. Not written on the upper joint, like the Priv. Here's the horn. Pic:

s-l1600.jpg

FWIW, you could probably argue that the bell isn't original. I'd bet that the Priv and 33 have interchangeable bells. That's also not a common angle for a pic, as far as I've been able to see.
 
pete said:
Considering Quinn's got a low C bass for sale, @Gandalfe can probably tell you if the horn Quinn's selling is a 33 or something earlier. I also think Gandalfe had/has a 67 bass.
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Quinn is selling a Buffet Model 1193 Prestige bass clarinet currently. It's minty and should go for around $10K. My Selmer 67 Privilege bass clarinet (which doesn't look like yours) was a special deal that was used by NAMM for a year and the sold to me in like new condition 7 or 8 years ago for somewhere south of $8000. Your bass clarinet does not look minty and may be hard to sell for anywhere near those prices.
 
Redux.

I was interested enough to look up the Model 37 that clarnibass mentioned. That does appear to be a different model ... and it has the little adjustment screws I was yammering on about. So, the timeline is:

About 1960: Selmer Series 9 bass clarinet introduced.
Between 1968 and 1971: Selmer Model 33 bass clarinet introduced. The existence of a Model 33 can be proven with catalogs listed here.
Early 1980s: Revision of the Model 33 bass clarinet.
1995: Introduction of the Model 37 bass clarinet.
2004: Introduction of the Privilege Model 67.

The Series 9 and Model 33 talk is distilled from this post and cross-referenced with clarinetperfection.com, for the serial numberage.

Selmer bass clarinets do follow the Bb soprano serial number chart. The latest horn listed on clarinetperfection is E74xx, which is dated to 1991 -- and B series serials = 1980.

So, it's definitely not an "early" 33. It's probably not a 67. It's probably a 37.

Yay!!! Killed a lunch hour!
 
pete said:
Here are a couple "for what it's worth" comments that'll hold you over until someone more knowledgable about Selmer bass clarinets comes by:

There's a Model 67 that was recently sold on eBay that has a serial number about 1000 off of yours. Also note the lower keys on the right side of the horn above the bell: the eBay 67 and your horn have a couple of "fine tuning" screws. Here's a Model 33 from USAHorn. No fine tuning screws. (Here's a new model 67 to take a peek at.)

On some 67s, "67" is stamped on the bell section, right below where the bell connects to the lower joint. It's on the back.

So, @Steve can probably confirm if I'm right or not. Considering Quinn's got a low C bass for sale, @Gandalfe can probably tell you if the horn Quinn's selling is a 33 or something earlier. I also think Gandalfe had/has a 67 bass.
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I rarely touch basses, so I don't have an answer off the top of my head.
 
pete said:
About 1960: Selmer Series 9 bass clarinet introduced.
Between 1968 and 1971: Selmer Model 33 bass clarinet introduced. The existence of a Model 33 can be proven with catalogs listed here.
Early 1980s: Revision of the Model 33 bass clarinet.
1995: Introduction of the Model 37 bass clarinet.
2004: Introduction of the Privilege Model 67.
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Yes, that's what I was going to post because there was a model between the 33 and Privilege/67. 37 was the low C model and 35 was the low Eb model.
AFAIK although they had a "revision of the model 33" in 1980, they made other changes along its run. At least I'm pretty sure I remember more than just two versions of Selmer bass clarinet between 1970 and 1995.

pete said:
So, it's definitely not an "early" 33. It's probably not a 67. It's probably a 37.
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It's probably not a 37 because the 37 never had a lyre holder at the top. At least not any of the few dozens I've seen. I guess it's possible they made a few with lyre holders though.
BTW as I mentioned the 35/37 had different names (numbers) in some countries, so if you find a model 25, that's the same thing (or maybe it was the 25 II).
Anyway a lyre holder usually suggests 33 or earlier.

I also don't know of any 67 models other than the Privilege, but there are a few possibilities. The 67 on the bell is out of focus and maybe it's something else. It does look like 67, so it could also be a bell serial number, or who knows what. It's very unlikely to not be the original bell but I guess that's also possible. Maybe they did have a model called 67, or that was the second name (like the 25), but I've never heard of that even though I'm pretty obsessive with bass clarinets...

So I don't know what this particular one is, but it has the lyre holder, the (very) old style of right thumb keys (and only tow of them). It is pretty old.

The second non-Privilege 67 looks newer. It doesn't have a lyre holder, has more modern shaped keys, seems to have the adjustable 3rd finger touchpiece, but doesn't have three right thumb keys which even the 37 has. He claims it's from 1993 so my best guess is that it's a very late 33 or some transitional instrument or a special order.

Even though I've seen so many of these, I'm not good at remembering small visual differences in mechanisms to be able to tell from that... and the photos are limited anyway...

Another possibility is that someone didn't know what the model was called, checked what the current Selmer low C bass clarinet was and just used that model for an older one they are selling.

So for the model in the OP I'm guessing a late 33 because it has the lyre holder and doesn't seems to have the adjustable 3rd finger key. Maybe more (and good) photos could help. If it's in good condition maybe around 50% of the price of a new model.
 
Coming from a Brass player (trpt-teacher).... you guys are all the greatest!!!! Thanks to
pete

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Grandpa Broccoli Admi... I've checked the bell and found the number 65 stamped into the metal. Prior to this picture, I searched every square inch of the instrument obviously with no success. The horn is not "mint" as the plating is worn on the c,d,e,f, keys but the pads are excellent as are the tenons (cork) so this instrument was well cared for. Unfortunately the leather trim on the edges of the case is failing too. So now that I've solved the mystery (and hopefully not making matters worse...) would anyone be able to give me an estimate for a Selmer Paris 65 in good condition? Is there a better place to sell it other than on ebay? Though there's been a break on the listing fees, it gets pretty disheartening when the monthly ebay invoice arrives.
 
trpt-teacher said:
I've checked the bell and found the number 65 stamped into the metal.
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Mmmm. The 65 is the low Eb version of the Privilege. Unless I need my eyes checked, you have a low C bass. I'll go back to my comment that the bell is probably interchangeable between all the models.

clarnibass, I think we've now established that the 23/II and 25/II were the non-US market versions of the 31/33. The 25P is the new Privilege (the 25, in the US, is the basset horn). I can certainly accept that there were minor differences between horns in the US market vs. horns from elsewhere, which could be something like the lyre holder. I'd think the adjustment screws would be a more major change.

*Sigh* Needs more research.

So, trpt-teacher, 33 (which is the same as the 25, but from a different market) or 37.
 
pete said:
clarnibass, I think we've now established that the 23/II and 25/II were the non-US market versions of the 31/33.
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No, the 23II and 25II are the 35 and 37. The 23 and 25 (without II) are the 31 and 33.

pete said:
So, trpt-teacher, 33 (which is the same as the 25, but from a different market) or 37.
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The bass clarinet in the OP is not a 37 (25II). No adjustable 3rd finger touchpiece and the lyre holder are the definite signs. It's almost sure from the 80s while the 37 came out in 1994.

From what I can find, the B series was at least up to 1981, but maybe later, so they started the C series maybre around 1982... or maybe a bit later, not sure. The 33 model was changed to the "new" version (still called 33) around the early 80s (don't know a specific year). So, your bass was likely made just around the time they changed from "old" to "new" and hard to say which one it is. Maybe if you post more photos showing details someone will be able to recognize it.
 
clarnibass said:
No, the 23II and 25II are the 35 and 37. The 23 and 25 (without II) are the 31 and 33.
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I sit corrected. Thanks.

Just throwing another couple monkey wrenches in the works ...

* There was a Model 30 and 32 bass, as well. They're in this catalog, pages 8-10. Not low C horns, but interesting to note.
* According to this post, there was a low C Model 31 back in 1965. This contradicts that, but says there was a Series 9 Model 33 low C bass.
* Here's a 1968 catalog with a Model 822, 822a, 823, and 823 low C (page 10). The catalog's from Selmer London. (From here, regarding the pricing, "A 'guinea' is an old British term for one pound plus one shilling, pre Britain's change in 1971 to decimal currency. Pre 1971 pounds were split into shillings and pence. There were 20 shillings in a pound and 12 pence in each shilling. There were therefore 240 pence in a pre-decimal pound.")

Aaaaaaaiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhh!!!!!!1111one

Anyhow, the last mention of the Model 33 bass clarinet in the stuff that Saxophone.org has posted, is 1988 (page 2). (Oh, and Terry would have been happy to know that Selmer still lists bass clarinets in A as late as 1988.) The Model 37 is not mentioned in any of the later catalogs posted.

I can't find clarinet serial numbers after the B series in 1981, but there is Steve's comment about E series serials in 1991. Which is kinda odd. I would expect Selmer, based on their past serial number history, to use a new letter prefix every one to two years. Indeed, this says a Model 67, with an M-series serial number, was made in 1993. Let's see. That's 12 years and 11 letters different, so I think Steve's horn is mis-dated (I also looked at a couple other "67s" that had dates, so I think I'm pretty right). Also, if Clark Fobes is right with the intro date of the 37 in 1995, and he probably is, the two examples I linked to where the sellers are calling their horns "67s" are incorrect and are really selling 37s.

OK, final: yes, it's a Model 33. No, it's not the "old" style. You're still going to get $3.5K-ish for the horn.

Yes, I might do a write-up on all of this because I do see that a lot of people are asking about what model Selmer BC they have and, so far, I think only the Series 9 had a model name stamped on it.
 
A write up would be really helpful, Pete.
And to go slightly off topic- I wonder why the Bass in A has a larger bore.
 
From one of my ebay Bidders.....

[h=3]This model Selmer Paris bass dates the the mid 1980's. The design of the two keys below the right thumb rest dates this instrument. This model was actually the third model change since the first low C models were produced in the mid 1960s. This one did not last very long, because the pitch on certain notes was not consistent. The model 37 followed this one and was a big improvement in both pitch and key work. That being said, I have a friend who played this model for some years in a major orchestra and has not chosen to upgrade to either of the newer model 37's or 67's[/h]
 
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