Lifting/adjusting pads?

[RoBass]

Hi folks,
I got an older clarinet fresh "overhauled" by the former owner. It was cleaned well and oiled in a very professional manner. He exchanged the pads too, but there's a problem now.-(
The pipe is not sealed well (not playable in this condition), and I found some new pads sitting very deep in the cup. It seems, the clarinet was equipped with fish skin pads before, and now it's leather. I assume, the difference in height was not referenced to. The (white) leather pads were glued in with red (!) sealing wax.
But some keys can't be closed with this pad-position. There's a gap of appr. 1mm. Justage is not possible so much, therefore I thought about lifting the pads a little bit in theirs cup.

Now the question: What kind of underlay/support would you prefer? Is cork applicable or better to use folded paper or what else?

kindly
Roman


PS: I would give the horn to the specialist, but 90,-Euros (plus package/mail!) for only some necessary pad adjustment is a lot of fee ;-/

 

[tictactux]

1mm in height or diameter? Anyway, that's huge. (The "red sealing wax" may or may not be shellac - I've seen a ton of sax pads glued in with that stuff, and I don't think those repair folks were all calligraphs...

Per lifting the pads - shellac (or hot melt glue) alone should suffice; it's getting hard enough when cold to properly support the pad in the cup. If shimming is necessary (eg large sax pads), I use old postards, they have a good thickness and rigidity, and the space aliens in 1000 years will have something to scratch their heads over. ;-)

 

[RoBass]

OK, the Alien related hint is a very good reason to do so ;-)

But I'm, sure, that it's sealing wax - the former user wrote me so. The 1mm means the height. For larger pads it's not a problem, but for the smaller on upper joint is ;-/

Then I will lift one by one with additional wax...and cryptic postcards... **ggg**

kindly
Roman

 

[tictactux]

But I'm, sure, that it's sealing wax - the former user wrote me so.

Sealing wax consists of vermilion, rosin and - big surprise - shellac.
Long as it holds the pad, who cares what it's called?

 

[jbtsax]

You have your work cut out for you if it was repadded by someone who didn't know what they were doing. It is much easier to start fresh with the correct size pads and proper adhesive than to try to fix someone else's shoddy work.

 

[tictactux]

You have your work cut out for you if it was repadded by someone who didn't know what they were doing. It is much easier to start fresh with the correct size pads and proper adhesive than to try to fix someone else's shoddy work.

I'd agree with you, but for the time being, and an opportunity being used...find out the sore spots, and fix them (and only them), on after the other.
As in many systems, 20% shoddiness will create 80% of the grief...the art consists in finding those 20%...

They all say one will learn from one's mistakes. Heck, you can also learn from other people's mistakes. Find the 10 differences...

 

[Chris J]

Hi

Before you get on and do that.

You mention a 1mm gap. I am not sure exactly what that gap represents. What needs to be done might depend on which pads are affected.

It sounds like you have some pads, that when you try and close them, they stay open by 1mm. If you just close them by direct pressure over the pads do they close and seal the tone hole?

If they do, then a timing cork or other adjustment might only need to be made, and the pad is actually correctly fitting. That is, the pad may not be closing enough because of lack of timing cork, or is being held of because of too much.

Pictures and a closer description of what is happening would be helpful

Chris

 

[RoBass]

Hi,
this is not a problem of one pad only ;-) The clarinet was equipped original with fish skin pads. These pads sit in the cup partly and the top of the pad is wider than the inner diameter of the cup. Therefore they exceed the cup height at least 0,5-1mm (typically). Leather pads of common type are of less diameter (appr. 1-2mm smaller) and sit only inside of the cup. And the second the leather pads are more flat than a fish-skin-felt-pad.

The former user replaced old fish skin pads by modern leather types and didn't respect to the new top height.
Small caps like the upper crosslinked won't close exactly, if the pad is not thick enough. And that's my problem - deep cup + flat pad + to less range to adjust the levers ;-)

I have to lift the pad a little bit, and that's it. With force only the hole could'nt sealed, because this is one of the stiffenest levers on the clarinet. Bending is not possible so much without cracking it or misalign the cup's plane totally. There's no possibility to scrap or add an adjustment by cork, because the levers itself are to high.
The pads are made of very good type and dimensions fitting to the cups - but to flat for an only exchange-procedure...

kindly
Roman


@tictatux: Yes, of course you're right with the shellack ;-) But it's a little bit more to mix a weaker sealing wax with the necessary flexibility. Therefore I told: sealing wax instead of shellack pure.

 

[Steve]

I'm confused ... so due to the ability of adjusting the pad without normal conventions (and installation methods) they used a wax ... so if they can adjust the pad without because the "fixing" material is pliable/flexible wouldn't the pad itself "adjust" because the fixing material is pliable ?

not a good thing in general when you think about it.

whether you use bladder stepped pads, bladder pads that don't cover the cup lip, leather or cork pads the correct amount of adhesive has to be put in place which will not only be used as an adhesive but also provide the proper height. Preferably an adhesive that isn't slightly pliable either like a real shellac / french cement, etc.

if you lift up the pad then there is going to not be enought adhesive behind it to prevent it from getting lopsided, or since its a flexible adhesive, to allow the pad to sink back into the cup.

 

[tictactux]

I'm confused ... so (...) they used a wax (...)

I understood it was sealing wax, aka the red stamped blob on the backside of love letters back then...

It's also found for sealing wine bottles and mustard jars and is quite brittle and hard - nothing waxy at all.

 

[Steve]

I have no experience with that wax. If an instrument is in the sun and the keycups are heated from direct sunlight, would it make the wax in the cups soft thus allowing the pads themselves to "adjust" from usage ?

basically what is it's operating temperature, does it provide a good adhesive?

The only experience I have with that wax is watching movies like Pirates of the Carribean when they seal a letter hahahaha

 

[tictactux]

I have no experience with that wax. If an instrument is in the sun and the keycups are heated from direct sunlight, would it make the wax in the cups soft thus allowing the pads themselves to "adjust" from usage ?

Steve, basically it differs from standard shellac mostly by colour. Melting point is roughly the same, as are rigidity and stickiness. I'd expect the price to be roughly the same. I have seen a greater variety in shellacs than in sealing waxes (my pet peeve is shellac that resembles window putty in colour, stench and texture. Well maybe it was window putty).

Only reason to use sealing wax over shellac is probably the availability. While a good stationery shop carries sealing wax sticks, one might have to walk a bit further to find shellac. With the advent of usable hot-melt glue, this point has become rather, well, pointless.