loose rings
- Thread starter Carl H.
- Start date
Do they tighten up in the Summer?
I've only had it for 4 weeks. I've no idea what will happen in the summer.
These barrels were overnighted to the place I purchased them the same week as I purchased them. Straight from Buffet, AFAIK.
They aren't pull them off with a twist loose, they are pick it up and off they go loose.
assuming they were tight to begin with .. it sounds like a humidification problem. The wood shrunk from the cold dry air of where you live (versus the humidity of Florida where they were shipped from)
try putting the rings back on and then oiling the sockets (alot) and let sit overnight and see how much tigher the rings are.
if that doesn't help then use the old orange peel or humidifier solution (and send me your xylophone <-- not a solution to the ring issue, but a solution for me
)
try putting the rings back on and then oiling the sockets (alot) and let sit overnight and see how much tigher the rings are.
if that doesn't help then use the old orange peel or humidifier solution (and send me your xylophone <-- not a solution to the ring issue, but a solution for me
)
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Xylophone?send me your xylophone <-- not a solution to the ring issue, but a solution for me
It's not really a xylpd, zylof, one of those things, it's a marimba.
Would you oil the receiver for the ring, or just the "bore side" of the barrel, or just baste it inside and out?
We'll be getting extra dry tonight, they're predicting -25, but the house is humidified.
Even though the house is humidified, you'll still have an overwhelming amount of very dry air in the area, against which the humidifier has to work. You'll end up with air somewhere between that by the humidistat and that outside - still low enough to make the difference when it comes to something with a close fit like a clarinet joint ring.
I'd try the oil first, then the old standby of the orange peel in the micro environment of the case. And, then send me your marimba...
I'd try the oil first, then the old standby of the orange peel in the micro environment of the case. And, then send me your marimba...
-25 ?? Celsius or Fahrenheit ?? either way... it's too cold
and you wonder why i never visit Minnesota
yes, baste the entire thing .. might as well .. won't hurt. Just wipe off the excess the next day or 2.
and don't listen to Terry ... send me the Marimba and not to him
and you wonder why i never visit Minnesota
yes, baste the entire thing .. might as well .. won't hurt. Just wipe off the excess the next day or 2.
and don't listen to Terry ... send me the Marimba and not to him
You say "both rings", but there are four...? Anyway, oiling and/or humidifying could (probably) help, but it could get loose again some other time, especially if you don't play for a few days and it's really cold and dry.
I had a loose lower joint ring. It would get very loose in the winter after not playing, and get tight in the summer especially after playing for a while. It is annoying to always make the sure instrument is oiled/humidified against the loose rings (and it doesn't always help).
If you find that the rings are still too loose after oiling, etc. then there are several methods to make them tight. I have tried most and prefer one over others. This is what I use when a customer is bringing an instrument with a loose ring. I can explain if you're interested.
Nitai
I had a loose lower joint ring. It would get very loose in the winter after not playing, and get tight in the summer especially after playing for a while. It is annoying to always make the sure instrument is oiled/humidified against the loose rings (and it doesn't always help).
If you find that the rings are still too loose after oiling, etc. then there are several methods to make them tight. I have tried most and prefer one over others. This is what I use when a customer is bringing an instrument with a loose ring. I can explain if you're interested.
Nitai
It is a new barrel, not a whole new clarinet. None of the rings on any other of my clarinets are loose, just this brand new, days from the factory barrel.
It sure is frustrating. But it plays well enough that I do not want it exchanged for a barrel that doesn't have loose rings.
I think you (Nitai) may have left out the description of your method in your post? I'm always interested in learning, so if you care to type it out I would gladly read it.
It sure is frustrating. But it plays well enough that I do not want it exchanged for a barrel that doesn't have loose rings.
I think you (Nitai) may have left out the description of your method in your post? I'm always interested in learning, so if you care to type it out I would gladly read it.
Yes, me too. I was wondering if it were a trade secret that you didn't want to share universally.
there's many methods out there listed in repair books. such as:
a sliver of cig paper under the rings (or other thin material)
a few drops of super glue (for that matter also epoxy)
for those with the normal small 1 ton press .. you can shrink the ring with the correct dies (easily available from places like Ferrees)
of course each provides their own benefits or problems etc
a sliver of cig paper under the rings (or other thin material)
a few drops of super glue (for that matter also epoxy)
for those with the normal small 1 ton press .. you can shrink the ring with the correct dies (easily available from places like Ferrees)
of course each provides their own benefits or problems etc
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I have had reasonably good success with PVA (aka "plain ol' white") glue. Just a teeny weeny bit is enough. It remains ever so slightly elastic and can easily enough be removed with water and or a bit of (moderate) heat.
I know such amateurish techniques will make me subject of frowning and ridicule worldwide. Be it.
I know such amateurish techniques will make me subject of frowning and ridicule worldwide. Be it.
24 hours later, the barrel is oily and the rings are just as loose as before. The other barrel I oiled at the same time has absorbed all the oil I applied to it's bore.
I don't think it is going to do anything, but I'll let it go till Sunday. I'll need it wiped off and "dry" by Tuesday evening again.
I don't think it is going to do anything, but I'll let it go till Sunday. I'll need it wiped off and "dry" by Tuesday evening again.
No secret! I just thought I wouldn't bother you with it in case the oiling works fine.
Basically there are several methods taught in books, etc.
The shrinking method. This requires a special tool that shrinks the ring. I don't really like this method because it is permanent (not actually permanent, but usually requires special tools, and not so easy to reverse). What if the clarinet gets to an area that is a lot hotter and more humid for example. I also consider this method overkill and unecessary.
There is the filler method (also described in books). This can be with paper, but I've heard of some repairers using a trash can bag, or even a t-shirt. It is ok, and the fact that this is ok pretty much proves the shrinking method is overkill. However the filler is usually not all around the ring, so it gets very tight in part of it, but actually will create gaps near that. Although I don't have any "proof" this is a problem.
Then there are all sorts of glues. Super glue is a little brittle and I don't think it is glued that good to even a little oily surfaces (which the socket might be). It is also not a great filler glue. So I don't prefer super glue. Epoxy might work, I haven't tried it. It is very strong, probably too strong to be easily removed.
The method I prefer I haven't read in any book, and was taught by another repairer (Gordon from NZ who post on SOTW and the clarinet forum). It is gluing the ring with shellac. Heat the ring, smear a thin layer of shellac all around the inside of it, and while the shellac is still soft enough to act as a filler, put the ring in place. The advantage is that it glues the ring but also acts as a filler, actually a very exact automatic filler, unlike the paper, etc. It is also very easy to remove/refill if the clarinet moves to a hotter or more humid area, or in extreme weather changes.
Another advantage of this method (to a customer) is that it is relatively fast and only requires tools that almost any repairer always have (nothing special or expensive like the shrinkning tools, etc.). This means a customer can wait a few minutes while this is done and it is also not expensive.
I guess you can use a different type of heat melting glue. Shellac is harder (when it cools) than other heat glues, so it gives more support to the ring, but another heat glue would work mostly the same with a bit more accomodation as a filler (not an issue IMO, so I prefer the extra support of shellac). For comparison, imagine leaning on a pillow, which is soft and will take the shape of your hand, and leaning on hard floor, which will not change but will support your hand much more.
Ben, I am not sure there is anything wrong with your method really. Maybe it is slower (takes longer to dry) and maybe less elastic than the sheallc (i.e. offers a bit less support).
Nitai
Basically there are several methods taught in books, etc.
The shrinking method. This requires a special tool that shrinks the ring. I don't really like this method because it is permanent (not actually permanent, but usually requires special tools, and not so easy to reverse). What if the clarinet gets to an area that is a lot hotter and more humid for example. I also consider this method overkill and unecessary.
There is the filler method (also described in books). This can be with paper, but I've heard of some repairers using a trash can bag, or even a t-shirt. It is ok, and the fact that this is ok pretty much proves the shrinking method is overkill. However the filler is usually not all around the ring, so it gets very tight in part of it, but actually will create gaps near that. Although I don't have any "proof" this is a problem.
Then there are all sorts of glues. Super glue is a little brittle and I don't think it is glued that good to even a little oily surfaces (which the socket might be). It is also not a great filler glue. So I don't prefer super glue. Epoxy might work, I haven't tried it. It is very strong, probably too strong to be easily removed.
The method I prefer I haven't read in any book, and was taught by another repairer (Gordon from NZ who post on SOTW and the clarinet forum). It is gluing the ring with shellac. Heat the ring, smear a thin layer of shellac all around the inside of it, and while the shellac is still soft enough to act as a filler, put the ring in place. The advantage is that it glues the ring but also acts as a filler, actually a very exact automatic filler, unlike the paper, etc. It is also very easy to remove/refill if the clarinet moves to a hotter or more humid area, or in extreme weather changes.
Another advantage of this method (to a customer) is that it is relatively fast and only requires tools that almost any repairer always have (nothing special or expensive like the shrinkning tools, etc.). This means a customer can wait a few minutes while this is done and it is also not expensive.
I guess you can use a different type of heat melting glue. Shellac is harder (when it cools) than other heat glues, so it gives more support to the ring, but another heat glue would work mostly the same with a bit more accomodation as a filler (not an issue IMO, so I prefer the extra support of shellac). For comparison, imagine leaning on a pillow, which is soft and will take the shape of your hand, and leaning on hard floor, which will not change but will support your hand much more.
Ben, I am not sure there is anything wrong with your method really. Maybe it is slower (takes longer to dry) and maybe less elastic than the sheallc (i.e. offers a bit less support).
Nitai
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The method I was taught by a very experienced clarinet technician who works part time in our shop is to remove the ring and stretch a piece of black silk material over the opening. While holding the material tightly in place, reinsert the ring over the end of the barrel making sure it is going on straight. Then you firmly tap it into place using a rawhide or plastic mallet.
If one layer of material does not make it very snug you can double the silk, but this is usually not necessary. Once the ring is installed it is an easy matter to cut away the extra material with a single edge razor blade or exact-o knife. Sometimes pesky little threads can be burned off with a cigarette lighter.
As it was explained to me, the advantages of this method are:
-It puts even pressure all around the ring
-The material continues to allow the wood underneath to breathe
-Being a friction fit, the ring can be easily removed if needed
-It can easily adjusted in the future both for further shrinkage or expansion of the wood
-It is invisible
It should be noted that having loose rings on a clarinet does not encourage the wood to crack. If it is going to crack, the wood will crack whether or not the rings are tight. The purpose of the rings are to protect the ends of the joints and to be decorative.
John
If one layer of material does not make it very snug you can double the silk, but this is usually not necessary. Once the ring is installed it is an easy matter to cut away the extra material with a single edge razor blade or exact-o knife. Sometimes pesky little threads can be burned off with a cigarette lighter.
As it was explained to me, the advantages of this method are:
-It puts even pressure all around the ring
-The material continues to allow the wood underneath to breathe
-Being a friction fit, the ring can be easily removed if needed
-It can easily adjusted in the future both for further shrinkage or expansion of the wood
-It is invisible
It should be noted that having loose rings on a clarinet does not encourage the wood to crack. If it is going to crack, the wood will crack whether or not the rings are tight. The purpose of the rings are to protect the ends of the joints and to be decorative.
John