My 6M-VIII vs Ref 54 vs PB(x2 maybe?)
- Thread starter MexicanDragon
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The only other opinion I have on the Barone horns is that the keywork construction on that "saxello" looks fairly wimpy in comparison to the PM. That's an argument that's immaterial to the question of, "Is it the same bore?"
My opinion regarding whether to buy Barone or PM is to play both (remember: the PM has a zillion options and the bell/material/bow/neck options may make a difference) and see if they SOUND like they're different and, if they do, whether they FEEL different enough to justify the difference in price.
Again, my opinion on your horn search is that you have a bit of GAS. That's not bad, but you're still at the "window shopping" stage. You need to more define what you like/want, because the Keilwerth is a lot different from the Reference and the Reference is a lot different from your 6M. Arguably, the PB and PM are the same horn, but neither is in the league of the Reference or SX-90R. If you just want "good horn", I'd recommend that you keep what you've got or do as I've mentioned and troll eBay for a YAS-61/2. or YAS-52 (which is much cheaper).
My opinion regarding whether to buy Barone or PM is to play both (remember: the PM has a zillion options and the bell/material/bow/neck options may make a difference) and see if they SOUND like they're different and, if they do, whether they FEEL different enough to justify the difference in price.
Again, my opinion on your horn search is that you have a bit of GAS. That's not bad, but you're still at the "window shopping" stage. You need to more define what you like/want, because the Keilwerth is a lot different from the Reference and the Reference is a lot different from your 6M. Arguably, the PB and PM are the same horn, but neither is in the league of the Reference or SX-90R. If you just want "good horn", I'd recommend that you keep what you've got or do as I've mentioned and troll eBay for a YAS-61/2. or YAS-52 (which is much cheaper).
SOTSDO said:
My 1911 is a Les Baer Custom Xtreme Tactical in Stainless Steel. If I needed a quick grand I have no doubts I could get it in under a day or two, especially since the prices of Baers just shot up quite a bit. I could do 1250$ in under a week, but quick dumping... grand no problem.
pete said:
I'm interested to see where you put my 6M-VIII in line with the Ref, SX90R, PB, PM, Yani, Yamaha, etc...
BTW, I have a friend who bought a Kookaburra collector's edition he got in on Wednesday. I'll get to take it for a spin next Thursday. I was trying to get him to buy NitroSax's ref 54 that was hand picked by SteveP... instead he spent 2400$ more to get a new one from Kessler's. Oh to have disposable income...
**BRENT**
It's not a horn I'd want. I play classical. I've played enough Conns to know that neither the intonation or ergonomics are something I'd want to deal with. I loved the tone on the 30M and I'd assume the tone is simular on a 10M.
The "VIII" is just a modification in the neck; allegedly the one that was used on the Connquerors. It's arguably a good thing, but that's not a make it or break it issue for most Conn lovers.
* In terms of tonal quality and design, the 6M Artist is closest to the SX90R. You could argue that the PM "big bell" options with the different necks (i.e. "Vintage" series) are also close to the Conn -- that's their advertising copy, at least -- but the Keilwerth began life in the late 1920's as a good copy of a Conn and they just improved on that design over the next 80+ years. They never tried to be a Mark VI clone maker.
* The Yani, Yamaha 875 and Reference 54 are all "from the same mold", as it were: they're all trying to one-up the Selmer Mark VI. Each has it's own "take" on the idea and there's no clear winner: I believe one reviewer on SOTW said that he found the Yani to be a better instrument than the Ref. 54. I really loved the Yamaha 855 (forerunner of the 875) more than the VIs I've played, but it was waaaaayyyyy expensive at the time. Checking completed ads on eBay, the 875 is in the $2000 range. That's about $1300 off new. The Yani 990/991 is in the $1700 range. That's about $1500 off new, but I've never played one -- but it might be your Ref. 54 killer, according to some. Ref. 54? That's $3500 and you're unlikely to find used. Expensive.
You didn't like the Yamaha 82Z. I've never played one, but it's supposed to be a "jazzy alternative" to the 875. Whatever that means. The 62 is an all-around-decent horn, but it's kinda like a Toyota Camry: no flash, but consistent and reliable. The 875 is a lot darker, heavier and more VI-like. Better keywork and intonation than the VI.
Dude. You keep going back to the Ref. 54. Just go ahead and buy one. Either a) you just want to justify the 6M. OK. You're justified. It's good enough. I've got thousands of folks that'll agree with me or b) you won't be satisfied until you possess a Ref. 54.
Sorry. Sometimes that's the only kind of cure for the GAS you have
.I appreciate your response Pete. Its hard for me to play a wide variety of horns without making a trip to vegas, Indiana, Iowa, or New Jersey... there's just no where around here I can take a day trip to.
As far as used 54s, I've seen two in the past month for 2995-2999.99$ (the former a shipped price) and one I saw with two small bb sized pings, with a brand new neck and fresh adjustment (to the tune of 375$) that went for 2675$. That's the prices at which I'm considering 54s, not 3500-4500$. The two I have access to went for over 5000$ each, but I expect the used ones to be just as good as the bird series horns.
About "placing the 6M-VIII", I was just wondering if you considered it a "pro" horn. It seems in a classical context (you, my teacher, etc...) its "not". In a jazz setting, its different.
I'm thinking that the SX-90R ISN'T for me because I DO have an Artist series Conn. I'm wanting something different, yet complimentary. The 82Z didn't inspire me, but I haven't tried a non-Z custom yet (trying to get that remedied, as I know someone in the area with an 875, just have to get together). I only know of two Yanis in the area. One is owned by my tech (a 991 with custom engraving, was owned by a NYC pro who bought a matched set of altos, but I guess he needed/wanted to dump one of them), and the other is owned by a collegiate undergrad at a school an hour away. I don't KNOW him, however, I just know he has a Yani, not even sure if its a 90x or 99x, but I know its not a 993x. I DID read the 54/992 shootout, and it does intrigue me, I've just yet to get my hands on one of those.
There is someone with an SAT set of Barone horns looking to move to the city 25 miles away from me. I have a feeling that will be the chance I get to try out those, but for now, I am just going to stick to the 6M and keep practicing. There's no telling how much better I'd be if I practiced scales and etudes instead of replying/typing in this thread... another lesson for those burgeoning sax majors/future small liberal-arts college music professors.
**BRENT**
As far as used 54s, I've seen two in the past month for 2995-2999.99$ (the former a shipped price) and one I saw with two small bb sized pings, with a brand new neck and fresh adjustment (to the tune of 375$) that went for 2675$. That's the prices at which I'm considering 54s, not 3500-4500$. The two I have access to went for over 5000$ each, but I expect the used ones to be just as good as the bird series horns.
About "placing the 6M-VIII", I was just wondering if you considered it a "pro" horn. It seems in a classical context (you, my teacher, etc...) its "not". In a jazz setting, its different.
I'm thinking that the SX-90R ISN'T for me because I DO have an Artist series Conn. I'm wanting something different, yet complimentary. The 82Z didn't inspire me, but I haven't tried a non-Z custom yet (trying to get that remedied, as I know someone in the area with an 875, just have to get together). I only know of two Yanis in the area. One is owned by my tech (a 991 with custom engraving, was owned by a NYC pro who bought a matched set of altos, but I guess he needed/wanted to dump one of them), and the other is owned by a collegiate undergrad at a school an hour away. I don't KNOW him, however, I just know he has a Yani, not even sure if its a 90x or 99x, but I know its not a 993x. I DID read the 54/992 shootout, and it does intrigue me, I've just yet to get my hands on one of those.
There is someone with an SAT set of Barone horns looking to move to the city 25 miles away from me. I have a feeling that will be the chance I get to try out those, but for now, I am just going to stick to the 6M and keep practicing. There's no telling how much better I'd be if I practiced scales and etudes instead of replying/typing in this thread... another lesson for those burgeoning sax majors/future small liberal-arts college music professors.
**BRENT**
IIRC, the 993x horns are the Yanis with the interesting metal (solid silver, pink gold, gold plate, etc.). If you're wanting to spend under $3K, these would be way out of your price-range.
It's not that I don't consider the Conn Artist a "pro" horn, it's just that I feel it's overmatched by any of the modern pro horns you mention, with the possible exception of the PM/Barone: when it was new, it was advertised as pro, it played equivalent to or better than other pro horns of the time and a lot of pros played them. But, as I said, it's overmatched by modern pro horns. Yes, you can make an argument that it "sounds" better to you than a Ref. 54. Fine. But the intonation and ergonomics coupled with a pretty darn decent sound, itself, means that the Conn would be last on my list if I had any brand new pro horn to choose from instead of it. Even if you extended the list to the "introductory" pro horns, like the Yamaha 62.
The reason I except the PM/Barone is because I do not have a large enough sample of pro players that have switched from "traditional" pro horns to them and I've not play-tested one. I do have some concerns about the build quality of the Barones I've seen. Further, though, I think I could probably have a P. Mauriat customized sufficiently to please me, but I'd also have to look really closely at what I could customize and what the return policy was.
However, I do know that I'd be out-of-my-mind insanely happy with a Yani 9930, Yamaha 62, Keilwerth SX90R or Selmer S80 III baritone, if it was in decent shape (heck, PLAYABLE shape) -- in approximately that order of preference. And I really wasn't overly fond of the S80 I or II baris. The rumored III might be fun to try.
As always, if you buy a horn from eBay, expect to need to pay $600 for an overhaul. You might not have to pay that much, but expect it.
sax.co.uk says that there was a recent price increase on Selmer models. You may have waited a month too long.
BTB, I don't mind if you'd rather practice. It's all good. I just type away. That's what I do -- and my bari's in the shop.
It's not that I don't consider the Conn Artist a "pro" horn, it's just that I feel it's overmatched by any of the modern pro horns you mention, with the possible exception of the PM/Barone: when it was new, it was advertised as pro, it played equivalent to or better than other pro horns of the time and a lot of pros played them. But, as I said, it's overmatched by modern pro horns. Yes, you can make an argument that it "sounds" better to you than a Ref. 54. Fine. But the intonation and ergonomics coupled with a pretty darn decent sound, itself, means that the Conn would be last on my list if I had any brand new pro horn to choose from instead of it. Even if you extended the list to the "introductory" pro horns, like the Yamaha 62.
The reason I except the PM/Barone is because I do not have a large enough sample of pro players that have switched from "traditional" pro horns to them and I've not play-tested one. I do have some concerns about the build quality of the Barones I've seen. Further, though, I think I could probably have a P. Mauriat customized sufficiently to please me, but I'd also have to look really closely at what I could customize and what the return policy was.
However, I do know that I'd be out-of-my-mind insanely happy with a Yani 9930, Yamaha 62, Keilwerth SX90R or Selmer S80 III baritone, if it was in decent shape (heck, PLAYABLE shape) -- in approximately that order of preference. And I really wasn't overly fond of the S80 I or II baris. The rumored III might be fun to try.
As always, if you buy a horn from eBay, expect to need to pay $600 for an overhaul. You might not have to pay that much, but expect it.
sax.co.uk says that there was a recent price increase on Selmer models. You may have waited a month too long.
BTB, I don't mind if you'd rather practice. It's all good. I just type away. That's what I do -- and my bari's in the shop
.pete said:
Yeah, the 993x horns are the ones with varying degrees of solid silver. Supposedly the 9937 is hands down the best modern production horn, period.
Thanks, this fleshes out what I was kinda hunting for, opinion wise.
With the Barone build quality issue, could you elaborate on that a little? Horns you've personally handled, or pictures, or first hands accounts? Feel free to PM if you want to keep it off the board, I'm just interested in horns and information in general.
I'm not a bari guy, never have been. A shame, really, since they're the ones who get the gigs.
The three horns I mentioned specifically are all from SOTW members, one which I have already had dealings with. His horn went for 2695$ + shipping and included a new neck and had just been set-up (was bought used - 1 owner - who had never done a proper setup on the horn, and didn't particularly care for it.) Another horn had been handpicked by Steve P (grad student under Dr. Otis Murphy @ Indiana U) which hadn't been out of the owner's home since September, the owner being a tenor player in a military band in Toyko who had to sell for financial reasons. That horn was bought in September of 07, it went for 2999.99$ plus shipping. There is one FS right now for 2995$ shipped which seems to have been taken care of very well, and was play-tested recently by another, I believe, trusted member of the SOTW community. I'm not saying these horns come up for sale every day, but these are the ones I've seen go in the past 2 months.
I noticed that increase, but there are still relative deals to be had. Kessler has a new Kookaburra standard for under 3700$ new. Its still not the 3000$ used horn, but there does seem to be a 1200$ fluctation between major retailers' prices on the Ref 54 altos.
BTB, I don't mind if you'd rather practice. It's all good. I just type away. That's what I do -- and my bari's in the shop
Heh... I think the reason I started this thread was because my alto was in the shop. I was up with the kids late and the wife was out. I didn't get a chance to practice, but she got in 20 minutes ago and the kids finally went to sleep (my youngest is a night owl... I don't know WHERE he gets it from (as I look at my clock and see its 3:52am). Really, I don't think I'd RATHER be practicing, more like I SHOULD be practicing.
FWIW, I had the opportunity to buy a prototype YAS-62 with custom series keywork back when I bought my horn. I was really into the vintage thing when I got it (I think I was 15, almost 16 when I got the 6M-VIII). I don't know if that YAS-62 turned into the YAS-62II, or if its something different... but now that I think about it, it may have been worth picking up.
Anyways, it rolled over 4am, bed time.
**BRENT**
If you look at that "saxello" comparison on SOTW -- you can post the link; I'm too lazy. If you can't find it, I'll look for it -- the keywork looks thinner, more "haphazardly" laid out and a bit more cumbersome than the P. Mauriat. I don't know if that makes a substantial difference in the horn's "handing", but it gives you a bit of pause.MexicanDragon said:
As kind of an example by comparison, I owned -- for a very brief time -- a newer Amati "pro" tenor (I bought it for the case. Really). At first glance, the keywork looks slightly superior to a Yamaha. However, when you play the horn, you realize that the keywork isn't well fitted together, jams a bit and contacts the horn in an odd fashion. There were also little "tabs" and additional contact points for the keywork's "feet" randomly over the horn. It's as if they stole the keywork off a real Yamaha, found it wouldn't fit right and started hacking it apart to "make" it fit. (The horn, case and my Rascher tenor MP were stolen.)
Additionally, Barone's comments in that thread tend to make me wonder how many factories he's using. The conclusion I draw from his comments is that some of his horns are higher quality than the others because of where they were produced.
Again, I've not played the Barone or the PMs and, as mentioned, the Barone alto and tenor look, to me, closer to the PM models than the "saxello" does. However, I don't know if the alto and tenor I saw (also on SOTW) were produced around the same time as the "saxello" or if they were produced at the first plant Barone used.
IMO, that's too many things to have to check on an instrument. I'd probably skip the Barone, unless I was told I could playtest several for a LONG while and get an extremely good deal on the price.
Additionally, Barone's comments in that thread tend to make me wonder how many factories he's using. The conclusion I draw from his comments is that some of his horns are higher quality than the others because of where they were produced.
This is a typical problem with outsourcing production, whatever the product. Those who remember Japanese electronics from the 1960's will recall that you could buy a perfectly good transistor radio, lose it or have it stolen, and then buy another of the same brand only to find that the thing was completely different. While Matsushita (Panasonic) may have sold the first radio to the exporters as as Panasonic, it was really a set of parts from suppliers assembled by a hole in the wall shop to which Matsushita had contracted the work.
As for Japanese electronics in 1960, so too for saxophones being put together for "private" brands these days. While not a student of the saxes, I have noticed on Tom Ridenour's bass clarinets the same sort of fluctuations. I cannot believe that Tom, who I have known as a honest and reputable man in the distant past, would have signed off on the production of his early versions of his low C bass clarinet. Instead, what probably happened was that he was shown a hand-crafted (and highly polished and aligned) prototype, gave it the go ahead, and then went back to his bench. In the mean time, his "manufacturer" went out and found the shops to do the production work, a group that turned out a flimsy piece of near-junk that I wouldn't play if you paid me ten times scale.
This is nothing new. Conn did it (tragically) with their move to the border, ensuring that no one could utter the Colonel's good name in connection with a saxophone without raising doubts in some of those who heard it. Selmer and Leblanc didn't do themselves any favors with the production of Bundy and Vito instruments (although at least they distanced their "anchor" brand names through the adoption of "student horn" brands).
There have been a welter of "new" sax brands brought on the market in the last forty years. I know that I was shocked back in the halcyon days of my youth when someone said that it didn't matter if my Selmer baritone was in the shop because they would bring a Yanasigawa baritone to the gig for me to use ("Yanasi-what?" was my answer...). Back then, with Conn becoming a memory and Leblanc and Buffet about to do the same, if it wasn't a Selmer, it was exotic indeed, but now "Yanis" are as common as string players in the unemployment lines.
But, I predict that just as Yamaha has become a force in the world of saxophones, so too will some of the newer brand. (LA Sax? Well, maybe not in my eyes...) The problem is, as our Mexican Dragon poster has encountered, sorting them all out without spending a lot of money in the process. However, it could be a lot, lot worse - you could be looking for a baritone...
This is a typical problem with outsourcing production, whatever the product. Those who remember Japanese electronics from the 1960's will recall that you could buy a perfectly good transistor radio, lose it or have it stolen, and then buy another of the same brand only to find that the thing was completely different. While Matsushita (Panasonic) may have sold the first radio to the exporters as as Panasonic, it was really a set of parts from suppliers assembled by a hole in the wall shop to which Matsushita had contracted the work.
As for Japanese electronics in 1960, so too for saxophones being put together for "private" brands these days. While not a student of the saxes, I have noticed on Tom Ridenour's bass clarinets the same sort of fluctuations. I cannot believe that Tom, who I have known as a honest and reputable man in the distant past, would have signed off on the production of his early versions of his low C bass clarinet. Instead, what probably happened was that he was shown a hand-crafted (and highly polished and aligned) prototype, gave it the go ahead, and then went back to his bench. In the mean time, his "manufacturer" went out and found the shops to do the production work, a group that turned out a flimsy piece of near-junk that I wouldn't play if you paid me ten times scale.
This is nothing new. Conn did it (tragically) with their move to the border, ensuring that no one could utter the Colonel's good name in connection with a saxophone without raising doubts in some of those who heard it. Selmer and Leblanc didn't do themselves any favors with the production of Bundy and Vito instruments (although at least they distanced their "anchor" brand names through the adoption of "student horn" brands).
There have been a welter of "new" sax brands brought on the market in the last forty years. I know that I was shocked back in the halcyon days of my youth when someone said that it didn't matter if my Selmer baritone was in the shop because they would bring a Yanasigawa baritone to the gig for me to use ("Yanasi-what?" was my answer...). Back then, with Conn becoming a memory and Leblanc and Buffet about to do the same, if it wasn't a Selmer, it was exotic indeed, but now "Yanis" are as common as string players in the unemployment lines.
But, I predict that just as Yamaha has become a force in the world of saxophones, so too will some of the newer brand. (LA Sax? Well, maybe not in my eyes...) The problem is, as our Mexican Dragon poster has encountered, sorting them all out without spending a lot of money in the process. However, it could be a lot, lot worse - you could be looking for a baritone...
Hey. I like Bundy horns.
George M. Bundy was the original foreman and later president of Selmer USA. The first Bundy instruments -- on the sax side -- were Conn New Wonder stencils, then Buescher stenciled the Aristocrat, then they stenciled a Keilwerth New King/Toneking, then they got into student-model-ish in the mid-to-late 1960s. And I *still* maintain that the Bundy/Bundy IIs are decent because they can take a beating and still play in relatively good tune.
Hey, the Bundy II bari had the same bore as the Big B Aristocrat, I've heard ....
Vito horns were made by Vito (Kenosha), Beaugnier, Yanagaisawa, Yamaha and Jupiter. The Kenosha and Jupiter ones are not well regarded and I don't care for the original run of Yanagisawa-makes (I think they were the 6-series), but my Beaugnier bari has a sublime tone and the Leblanc System version is actually worth quite a bit. Hey, the modern Vito bari is a Yani B901, IIRC, and is somewhat cheaper than the Yani-branded version ($600 to $1000, depending on dealer).
========
BTB, the P. Mauriat/Barone "saxello" comparison pics are at http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.p ... stcount=10
The P. Mauriat/Barone tenor comparison pics are at http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.p ... tcount=162
Notes:
* You might need to be logged in to see the pics.
* While I just linked to the posts with the pics, I recommend reading the full threads. I saw a couple posts that specifically addressed the, "Gee, the Barones vary in quality!" question.
George M. Bundy was the original foreman and later president of Selmer USA. The first Bundy instruments -- on the sax side -- were Conn New Wonder stencils, then Buescher stenciled the Aristocrat, then they stenciled a Keilwerth New King/Toneking, then they got into student-model-ish in the mid-to-late 1960s. And I *still* maintain that the Bundy/Bundy IIs are decent because they can take a beating and still play in relatively good tune.
Hey, the Bundy II bari had the same bore as the Big B Aristocrat, I've heard ....
Vito horns were made by Vito (Kenosha), Beaugnier, Yanagaisawa, Yamaha and Jupiter. The Kenosha and Jupiter ones are not well regarded and I don't care for the original run of Yanagisawa-makes (I think they were the 6-series), but my Beaugnier bari has a sublime tone and the Leblanc System version is actually worth quite a bit. Hey, the modern Vito bari is a Yani B901, IIRC, and is somewhat cheaper than the Yani-branded version ($600 to $1000, depending on dealer).
========
BTB, the P. Mauriat/Barone "saxello" comparison pics are at http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.p ... stcount=10
The P. Mauriat/Barone tenor comparison pics are at http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.p ... tcount=162
Notes:
* You might need to be logged in to see the pics.
* While I just linked to the posts with the pics, I recommend reading the full threads. I saw a couple posts that specifically addressed the, "Gee, the Barones vary in quality!" question.
The Bundy II seems to have the same body tube with some slight differences in tone hole placement. Ralph Morgan said he "designed" the Bundy II when I was talking to him one day. Interestingly he hates the Buescher 400 because they got away from the parabolic bore. I know can of worms.
Anyways, the neck from my student Bundy II alto fits nicely on my 1952 Buescher Aristocrat 140 alto. They sound rather similar to my ears as well.
Now back the advice for our dear friend. If you really like the 54 I agree with Pete - buy one. I still think the 6M is a heck of a horn but if world peace breaks out because you get a 54 then that's great (I'm talking about your teacher not actual world peace). Gandalfe really likes his 54 and he's played a lot of horns. I preferred the Yamaha 82Z but I play a five digit VI and it reminded me a bit of a late Mark VI and the 54 didn't.
Anyways, the neck from my student Bundy II alto fits nicely on my 1952 Buescher Aristocrat 140 alto. They sound rather similar to my ears as well.
Now back the advice for our dear friend. If you really like the 54 I agree with Pete - buy one. I still think the 6M is a heck of a horn but if world peace breaks out because you get a 54 then that's great (I'm talking about your teacher not actual world peace). Gandalfe really likes his 54 and he's played a lot of horns. I preferred the Yamaha 82Z but I play a five digit VI and it reminded me a bit of a late Mark VI and the 54 didn't.