Neck Extension No-No

MartinMods

MartinMods

Yikes! Just got a copper, Gloger "extended" bari sax neck in from a client. It had originally been extended 1" by KG. The owner had shortened it by 1/2", and sent it to me to shorten again, back to the original design length. While the craftsmanship is obviously outstanding, the acoustic design of the neck was totally wrong. It would never, ever, play anything but really out of tune, with any standard bari mouthpiece.

The neck tube had been made 1" longer, by extending the conical taper, which changes the truncation ratio of the sax. That means that the theoretical missing cone, which the mouthpiece is supposed to substitute for (in 3d volume and playing pitch), had become considerably shorter and smaller (in volume). The only way to play it in tune would be to use a much smaller tenor or alto mouthpiece. I doubt that that was the intent of the modification.

The Moral: Extending the sax neck, conically and even cylindrically, is a major ACOUSTICAL modification, and should NEVER be used for solving the purely mechanical problem of not having enough cork to hold the mouthpiece firmly on the neck. It can be used to change intonation and response characteristics, but should be done ONLY if you know exactly what you are doing - you know everything about the truncation ratio, missing cone volume, missing cone length, Frs, equivalent mouthpiece volume, mouthpiece design, and how to match these parameters in the original and modified versions.

If the mouthpiece plays and tunes well, but falls off the neck, the correct, acoustically neutral solution is to extend the mouthpiece shank.

I think the KG neck copies are excellent. Before ordering anything special, I would consult first with someone who knows how the saxophone works acoustically. The instrument functions according to complex laws of physics, which go far beyond uninformed "common sense" ideas.
 
Being moderately more serious, I really didn't know what "KG" stood for, because I've never heard of those necks referred to like that. I Googled. "Karsten Gloger" is what I assume you were going for. It's always a good idea to post a link to prevent cofnusion. Although I could have come up with more "KG" names and extend this thread to a couple thousand posts.

:p

Back on topic, I have gotten a number of e-mails over the years about doing saxophone modifications, sometimes even more extreme than modifying a neck. My general advice is that if you even think that a) you are going to sell the horn in the future or b) your playing style will change, doing a permanent modification -- like you describe -- is a bad idea. A cheap Gloger bari neck is $400. I'm sure that Mr. Gloger charged more for the modifications. That's more than I paid for some of my horns. It'd be really bad if I paid all that $ for a mod and found out in a couple days/weeks/years that it's no longer working for me. At the very least, my wife would smack me one.

Would it be correct to assume that your gentle ministrations corrected the problem? Further, why did this person "need" a Gloger neck? Is the original neck damaged beyond repair or did he get the Gloger to try to fix the intonation issues? Inquiring minds want to know.

As a side issue, would it be possible to make a mouthpiece that has an adjustable shank? That might be an interesting idea.
 
I disagree. About 75% of the time, when I get a request to extend the neck of a saxophone, it comes from someone who can't play saxophone very well.

Loose chops and lots of air = a good sax player, who usually pushes the mouthpiece on pretty far.

Occasionally, I run into a setup like old Conn tenor + Selmer short shank mouthpiece, or Buescher bass sax + Berg Larsen bari mouthpiece, that really requires an extension of some sort, even for great players. A neck extension on the exterior of the neck works great.
 
I've extended the shank of mouthpieces versus fiddling with the horn.

for instance, the first time I did this was with my Couf 8*J mouthpiece. Same size as all the other Couf mpcs except it has a full step baffle in it which requires one to pull it out for intonation. But if you pull it out and basically falls off the neck. If you make the neck cork THICK like the mpc needs then it wobbles alot. So that is not an option.

A neck extension? well, it's not the only mpc I use and I use it rarely.

So I cut off the shank of another couf mpc and epoxied it to the end of this one. The cutoff shank i created a concave section to accept the end of the mpc without modification. Then some epoxy and viola ... it worked. Works like a charm now.
 
I also vote in favor of extending the shank of the mouthpiece for these situations.

I am curious as to what brand of bari sax the extended neck was made for.
 
There's a big difference between extending the neck conically, and extending it cylindrically.

1. A conical neck extension changes the tube's truncation ratio, reducing the horn's mouthpiece volume requirement and raises the Frs requirement. The mouthpiece must be smaller and play at a higher pitch than normal to work correctly.

2. A cylindrical neck extension reduces the mouthpiece volume and raises it's Frs. The horn's truncation ratio and volume and frs requirements remain unchanged.

3. A mouthpiece shank extension has no acoustical effect whatsoever.

Pulling out and pushing in on the neck adjust the mouthpiece's volume and resonant frequency, however, for the mouthpiece to have both the correct volume AND the correct resonant frequency, it must have a certain width (volume) to length ratio. It can only be pushed in or pulled out so far. Neither an excessively long, narrow chamber nor a short, fat chamber will work. Baffle shape and height, throat diameter, facing length, tip opening, and the player, also play a roll.

This neck was made for a Conn 12M. Every mouthpiece Client owned fell off the end of the neck before he could get in tune. Client informed Gloger of the situation, who recommended extending the neck by 1". When the neck arrived (extended conically), Client was able to tune without mouthpiece mechanical stability problems, but D2-F2 were extremely sharp and palm key notes were very flat.

Client gets a Barone modified Tone Edge and has 1/2" cut off the neck. Intonation is manageable, but not good.

I will now restore the original neck length and extend the Tone Edge shank, which is what should have been done in the first place.
 
This is an interesting thread but goes to show that if you buy a used instrument, you might not realize what has been done to an instrument until it's too late. And many repair techs might not be able to figure out why there is a problem. That's basically what happened to me with an SDA I had. Lovely horn, but never could get it to play in tune at both ends of the horn. And neither could the techs.
 
Gandalfe said:
This is an interesting thread but goes to show that if you buy a used instrument, you might not realize what has been done to an instrument until it's too late. And many repair techs might not be able to figure out why there is a problem. That's basically what happened to me with an SDA I had. Lovely horn, but never could get it to play in tune at both ends of the horn. And neither could the techs.
Click to expand...

It's of paramount importance to determine whether the horn is still of original, undamaged design or not. That should be a simple matter for any competent tech. From there (provided the design is correct - not an issue for most name brands), solving intonation problems is usually a simple matter of matching mouthpiece volume/frs to the horns requirements. If you know the rules, it's easy, and learning the rules is just not that difficult. You don't need to do the differential equations to get it. Things get screwed up when people try to solve problems using uninformed, common sense ideas, with no understanding of the actual nature of the thing.

...same thing with computers, or anything else.
 
Why is common sense called that when it's not very common? I've always wondered that.

I never recommend to anyone, except pro-level players, to buy vintage. There's just too much that can be wrong and that could be insurmountable for the student/intermediate player.

I also don't recommend buying on eBay: you can't play-test the horns. Yes, there are a lot of pretties there. But are you willing to pay big $ for a horn that might not work? Is that eBay horn a good buy after you factor in that potential $600 repair bill for your alto?

A mouthpiece shank extension has no acoustical effect whatsoever.
Click to expand...
I don't completely agree with this. It might not have as much effect as the neck being toyed with, but it will still affect the acoustics: you're changing the volume of the mouthpiece.

Wait ... we had that discussion on another thread ....

:p

Computers? Well, one thing I can say is that on the sax, you don't have to worry about software licenses ....
 
pete said:
"A mouthpiece shank extension has no acoustical effect whatsoever. "

I don't completely agree with this. It might not have as much effect as the neck being toyed with, but it will still affect the acoustics: you're changing the volume of the mouthpiece.
Click to expand...

Maybe you misunderstand what a shank extension does. It in no way alters the volume of the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece position on the cork will not change in the slightest. It merely extends the material that fits over the cork.
 
Actually, the difference between my Couf J and a regular Couf is the baffle. THe J has a BIG step baffle which takes away, let's say 1/4 of the volume in the mouthpiece (after on the neck). Same external body dimensions though.

So for intonation one must pull the mpc OUT .. ALOT
so much so that it basically barely holds on to the neck. This is of course before you try to play it then you either push it in or rock it off.

these 3 pics show you the bodies of a couple Coufs and you can see the volume in the beak the full baffle uses

top view of bodies
http://www.ClarinetPerfection.com/history/mpccouf-01.jpg

window side views
http://www.ClarinetPerfection.com/history/mpccouf-02.jpg

http://www.ClarinetPerfection.com/history/mpccouf-03.jpg

http://www.ClarinetPerfection.com/history/mpccouf-03.jpg


i essentially took the mpc (from top view) on the far left and cut off the entire shank.
then cut out a large concave section inside to access a small portion of the mpc shank
then used epoxy to put the two together

now it has a long shank like a modern Selmer .... i'll take a pic later and post it. It is a bit crude as it was my first time doing it. I should go back and lathe and smooth the extended shank down to make it look better.
 
I also prefer extending the mouthpiece shank when possible.
 
pete said:
I don't completely agree with this. It might not have as much effect as the neck being toyed with, but it will still affect the acoustics: you're changing the volume of the mouthpiece.
Click to expand...
Only when playing the mouthpiece only, without the saxophone. When putting the mouthpiece on the neck, no difference.
 
What if you pull the mouthpiece all the way out?

I understand and accept the point you an MM are making: if you have a mouthpiece you love and it's hanging off the end of the neck, build a longer shank so the tip of the mouthpiece is still in the same relative location in space. But, say the player decides it's still too sharp. He then pulls out the mouthpiece past where the original shank ended. In other words, your mouthpiece now has a larger internal volume.
 
pete - something would have had to happen if the player now plays so sharp that he has to pull the mpc all the way out unless the neck was short (or mpc wasn't long enough) for some reason.

On my example above the volume of the mpc was much less compared to other non-baffle models - same length. Thus the mpc would have to be pulled out alot to the end nearly. Thus you can easily pull it off with your teeth if there's no super thick cork. and then it wobbles from such thick cork and little shank on the horn. The longer shank maker the internal volume more correct and allows it to be tight on the neck.

with the mpc only, the pitch of the longer shank is affected. But when placed on the neck, it therefore should be able to be placed in the correct location on the neck. So, the longer shank only allows better neck placement as the neck goes into the shank and is held in place better. The theoretical "real" volume of the mpc should be "total volume - volume when neck is inserted".

so i could make a shank that is a foot long and bulbs out like a bell and it won't affect the pitch of the instrument when ON the neck.
by itself, it might attract some moose though.


conversely, on my alto, i've shorten the shank of a long shank selmer. just because .... but it still is tight on the neck and it doesn't use up so much neck territory.

on left is a couf mpc
in middle shorten shank S80
on right a non-modified S80

http://www.clarinetperfection.com//images/mpc01.jpg

http://www.clarinetperfection.com//images/mpc02.jpg

http://www.clarinetperfection.com//images/mpc03.jpg
 
pete said:
What if you pull the mouthpiece all the way out?

I understand and accept the point you an MM are making: if you have a mouthpiece you love and it's hanging off the end of the neck, build a longer shank so the tip of the mouthpiece is still in the same relative location in space. But, say the player decides it's still too sharp. He then pulls out the mouthpiece past where the original shank ended. In other words, your mouthpiece now has a larger internal volume.
Click to expand...

In that case, yes, it would be larger. I have never encountered this situation however. One should realize that for drastic tuning adjustments of this type, pulling out the neck tenon some, is advisable.
 
The rationale (forgive the sax-related pun and you're a real sax geek if you got it) behind my point is that one component of this really should be, "Evaluate the player." I don't think any of the mouthpiece and/or neck surgeries mentioned in this thread should be performed on mouthpieces/necks owned by anyone that's not a professional-level player, who has settled down into a particular playing style and consistently uses the same mouthpiece/reed/ligature setup -- within reason, of course.

I wonder if there's some way we can post warnings in threads: "For Professional Use ONLY." :D

Anyhow, as a point of comparison, do you, MM or other posters, happen to know of a vintage instrument/mouthpiece combination that just begs for someone to lengthen the shank of the mouthpiece? I've not played a horn with my various mouthpiece combinations that was just so sharp my mouthpiece was hangin' off the end of the horn. I've not played that many mouthpieces or horns, though. Just a couple dozen horns and maybe a dozen mouthpieces.
 
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