Finally Amati got around to re-vamp their web site, it has badly been neglected in the past years.
http://www.amati.cz/en/
http://www.amati.cz/en/
New Amati Website
- Thread starter tictactux
- Start date
Ben: Interesting. Thanks for posting it.
When I went there, I saw no photographs of the described instruments. I was curious about their Albert clarinets ("German System"). I wonder if anyone on this site has played one? DAVE
When I went there, I saw no photographs of the described instruments. I was curious about their Albert clarinets ("German System"). I wonder if anyone on this site has played one? DAVE
Yes, the photos...interestingly, many are there on the Czech part of the site, so you might want to navigate a bit forth and back...
That worked. Thanks! DAVE
Again, all the pics are only on the Czech side.I was bummed that there were no pictures. It's not like that's a hard thing to do.
I checked the page source - it says
So - what are we expecting? Some days, these pictures will appear. Or the day later. Somewhen for sure.
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I own an Amati "German" (Oehler) instrument - the top of the line, silver-plated one with the semi-full keywork.
My overall opinion of the horn is that it's well designed but poorly executed. The finish on the wood portions of the horn is a bit on the dodgy side, with several sets of pores in tonehole seats that needed to be sealed in order to make things up tight. The skin pads were also poorly set and all needed to be reseated in order to make things work.
As for the keywork, it's funky compared to a Boehm horn, so there's a strike before you would ever get started with it. That aside, the whole horn needed to be adjusted to work with my hands, as all of the rings were set too high for my fingers to seal things up.
(This was sort of a pain, as the only way that the rings could be set low enough for me was to drop down the thickness of the pads that sealed the vent holes adjacent to the rings. (The cups for these are attached directly to the rings.) We ended up sanding down custom cork pads for these until the rings were brought down far enough to suit me.
Other problems with it were some slight binding in the patent C# mechanism, which was easily fixed, a limiting post under the LH E/B key, and the ugly as sin logo stamped at the top and bottom of the horn. It would look more appropriate on a Bundy than a top of the line
(And, the case is a piece of crap. It has the usual two barrels and other German style compartmentation, but the thing screams "cheesy" from the get-go.)
It was shipped to me with a junk French style mouthpiece, with which it could be played but not played well. What I ended up doing was to purchase a Vandorn German-style mouthpiece, one that matched the diameter of the top socket on the barrels. (The French style mouthpieces fit, but not well, and the bore is different in the bargain.)
I use the ligature that I invented (US Patent 4,796,507), one that meshes well with the grooves on the German style mouthpiece. The only problem there is that my German mouthpiece cover (turned out of grenadilla, no less) is now split, so no working mouthpiece cover.
The horn plays "differently" than my Boehm instruments, but that's only to be expected. I find the tone/timbre less shrill than my Boehm clarinets - darker, but not as much as the Selmer Recitals that I have played. There is the learning curve of the fingering system, but that should go away soon enough with some practice. A slick enough horn for classical work, but it doesn't project enough for pop/jazz stuff.
Would I buy it again, knowing what I do now? Well, if I was still on a quest to find a decent Oehler horn to noodle around on, probably - it wasn't that expensive and certainly was cheaper than anything else of its quality level.
But, I'm not impressed overall. The Amati folks, after all, are not craftsmen of the level of (say) the Hammerschmitt firm, so I didn't expect top end stuff to be in the case when I got the horn. All in all, it's good enough, but it's not a work of art.
My overall opinion of the horn is that it's well designed but poorly executed. The finish on the wood portions of the horn is a bit on the dodgy side, with several sets of pores in tonehole seats that needed to be sealed in order to make things up tight. The skin pads were also poorly set and all needed to be reseated in order to make things work.
As for the keywork, it's funky compared to a Boehm horn, so there's a strike before you would ever get started with it. That aside, the whole horn needed to be adjusted to work with my hands, as all of the rings were set too high for my fingers to seal things up.
(This was sort of a pain, as the only way that the rings could be set low enough for me was to drop down the thickness of the pads that sealed the vent holes adjacent to the rings. (The cups for these are attached directly to the rings.) We ended up sanding down custom cork pads for these until the rings were brought down far enough to suit me.
Other problems with it were some slight binding in the patent C# mechanism, which was easily fixed, a limiting post under the LH E/B key, and the ugly as sin logo stamped at the top and bottom of the horn. It would look more appropriate on a Bundy than a top of the line
(And, the case is a piece of crap. It has the usual two barrels and other German style compartmentation, but the thing screams "cheesy" from the get-go.)
It was shipped to me with a junk French style mouthpiece, with which it could be played but not played well. What I ended up doing was to purchase a Vandorn German-style mouthpiece, one that matched the diameter of the top socket on the barrels. (The French style mouthpieces fit, but not well, and the bore is different in the bargain.)
I use the ligature that I invented (US Patent 4,796,507), one that meshes well with the grooves on the German style mouthpiece. The only problem there is that my German mouthpiece cover (turned out of grenadilla, no less) is now split, so no working mouthpiece cover.
The horn plays "differently" than my Boehm instruments, but that's only to be expected. I find the tone/timbre less shrill than my Boehm clarinets - darker, but not as much as the Selmer Recitals that I have played. There is the learning curve of the fingering system, but that should go away soon enough with some practice. A slick enough horn for classical work, but it doesn't project enough for pop/jazz stuff.
Would I buy it again, knowing what I do now? Well, if I was still on a quest to find a decent Oehler horn to noodle around on, probably - it wasn't that expensive and certainly was cheaper than anything else of its quality level.
But, I'm not impressed overall. The Amati folks, after all, are not craftsmen of the level of (say) the Hammerschmitt firm, so I didn't expect top end stuff to be in the case when I got the horn. All in all, it's good enough, but it's not a work of art.
Terry: Thanks for a good report. I suspected the Amati may not be the hot ticket if one wanted a new German-System clarinet. Your report corroborated my suspicion.
I played with a guy in November (in Paris) who had a new Albert clarinet but I failed to obtain the brand name from him - and e-mail requests for that info don't receive a response. May be a language thing.
I've seen where Yamaha had a series of Albert clarinets but lately I haven't seen much, if any advertising for them. Admittedly, I haven't looked, either.
I have two Bb Alberts now (Conn hard-rubber and a Buescher wood model). A recently acquired French-made C-Albert remains in the repair shop. I've had others over the years, too. None of them were particularly good players and I'm hoping the C-Albert may turn out okay. It sounded good before it went to the shop but was fatally outta-whack, hence the overhaul.
I LOVE my Boehm Buffet RC Prestige soprano clarinet, even though I don't play it much.
I was just thinking that if I came across a new Bb Albert that played well, I MAY be interested. DAVE
I played with a guy in November (in Paris) who had a new Albert clarinet but I failed to obtain the brand name from him - and e-mail requests for that info don't receive a response. May be a language thing.
I've seen where Yamaha had a series of Albert clarinets but lately I haven't seen much, if any advertising for them. Admittedly, I haven't looked, either.
I have two Bb Alberts now (Conn hard-rubber and a Buescher wood model). A recently acquired French-made C-Albert remains in the repair shop. I've had others over the years, too. None of them were particularly good players and I'm hoping the C-Albert may turn out okay. It sounded good before it went to the shop but was fatally outta-whack, hence the overhaul.
I LOVE my Boehm Buffet RC Prestige soprano clarinet, even though I don't play it much.
I was just thinking that if I came across a new Bb Albert that played well, I MAY be interested. DAVE
I think that the Yamaha "Albert" horns are actually a series of German system clarinets (starting with a "student" model, and ranging all the way up to a full blown Oehler horn).
Long ago and far away, I tried to purchase a top end Yamaha Oehler horn, but ran into stone walls no matter which way I turned. Yamaha USA said that they couldn't sell me one, and Yamaha Germany and Japan never answered my (mail) inquiries. I tried a number of German retail firms on the internet once it came along, but again got zero response.
Long ago and far away, I tried to purchase a top end Yamaha Oehler horn, but ran into stone walls no matter which way I turned. Yamaha USA said that they couldn't sell me one, and Yamaha Germany and Japan never answered my (mail) inquiries. I tried a number of German retail firms on the internet once it came along, but again got zero response.
What level of playing are you aiming at?
My first clarinet was (still is) an Amati 211, clearly a student horn, bought new in a firesale for less than 200$. I haven't encountered badly fitting pads, and after some ring height adjustments (they were too deep for my taste) it played like a dream. Or "good enough" for me, that is. It's still my outdoor gig instrument.
The calculation is simple: Either get a Yamaha or German-made (Hüying, Adler etc) instrument for say 2000$ that may play fine out of the box, or get an Amati for 1000$ and have your tech tweak it for another $100 and invest in a fine mouthpiece for another $100. I'd probably choose the latter, considering I'd have a "custom" instrument, but perhaps my expectations aren't that of a professional.
Another "budget" option might be one of the simpler Schreiber models. (some prices are here)
Thank you for the second link above; it has listings for a number of that most elusive of instruments - the German bass clarinet. Other than the Belcanta models from Amati, all are priced at stratospheric levels (assuming I'm converting my Euros correctly). But, at least they are there.
The links are consistent with most other bass clarinet ads as well: short on photographs, limited views of the instruments, and the wrong photograph for the less-convenient of the horns ("low Eb bass clarinet - photo not available"). A notable exception to this (although somewhat inconsistent) are the art-level photographs of various elements of the Selmer instrument family, once seen on their website - you'd be hard put to get a overall view of any one instrument from them, but they are still gorgeous to behold.
The Internet has been with us for quite a while now, and it's hard to remember just how difficult it was to "find things" without the instant catalog that appears every time we open a website page in our web browsers. Instant gratification (for the information), almost instant gratification for the ordering (I still have to go find my wallet for the credit card numbers necessary - no matter what I am doing and where I am doing it, it is never at hand when it comes time to punch that penultimate "Next" button that starts asking "which-card-what-number-when-does-it-expires"), and near instant for delivery (dependent on the depth of your pocket and amount of patience).
Contrast that with when I bought my "main" bass clarinet (in 1971). One month just to have some jamoke at the local music jobber find out a price and model number. Two months waiting on the importer to actually be able to place my hands on a few of the things (prior to which time I had never even seen a photograph of the thing), plus a trip to the great state of Indiana to do the viewing. Three weeks to actually take delivery. And, cold hard cash please, no newfangled credit card numbers and sechlike. (Hell, other than gas companies, Diner's Card and department stores, there weren't such things in common circulation back then.)
One thing remains a constant. Whether a lowly Bundy made in the depths of godless Communist China to the highest example of the German hand-crafted Uebel, all have more hand-crafting in a single key axle than do thousands of other products that populate our lives. There may be a day when a "quality" (or even a Bundy) musical instrument can be stamped out like a pie plate on a power press line, but that day is still a long way away.
And, if the true definition of a "nerd" is that s/he owns his/her own bass clarinet, what's the term for someone who owns four of them? My wife wants to know so she can properly describe me to our non-musician friends...
The links are consistent with most other bass clarinet ads as well: short on photographs, limited views of the instruments, and the wrong photograph for the less-convenient of the horns ("low Eb bass clarinet - photo not available"). A notable exception to this (although somewhat inconsistent) are the art-level photographs of various elements of the Selmer instrument family, once seen on their website - you'd be hard put to get a overall view of any one instrument from them, but they are still gorgeous to behold.
The Internet has been with us for quite a while now, and it's hard to remember just how difficult it was to "find things" without the instant catalog that appears every time we open a website page in our web browsers. Instant gratification (for the information), almost instant gratification for the ordering (I still have to go find my wallet for the credit card numbers necessary - no matter what I am doing and where I am doing it, it is never at hand when it comes time to punch that penultimate "Next" button that starts asking "which-card-what-number-when-does-it-expires"), and near instant for delivery (dependent on the depth of your pocket and amount of patience).
Contrast that with when I bought my "main" bass clarinet (in 1971). One month just to have some jamoke at the local music jobber find out a price and model number. Two months waiting on the importer to actually be able to place my hands on a few of the things (prior to which time I had never even seen a photograph of the thing), plus a trip to the great state of Indiana to do the viewing. Three weeks to actually take delivery. And, cold hard cash please, no newfangled credit card numbers and sechlike. (Hell, other than gas companies, Diner's Card and department stores, there weren't such things in common circulation back then.)
One thing remains a constant. Whether a lowly Bundy made in the depths of godless Communist China to the highest example of the German hand-crafted Uebel, all have more hand-crafting in a single key axle than do thousands of other products that populate our lives. There may be a day when a "quality" (or even a Bundy) musical instrument can be stamped out like a pie plate on a power press line, but that day is still a long way away.
And, if the true definition of a "nerd" is that s/he owns his/her own bass clarinet, what's the term for someone who owns four of them? My wife wants to know so she can properly describe me to our non-musician friends...
A bass clarinet owner is just a warm water nerd. Diehard nerds own at least one Alto.
(Owning either, what does this make me?)
And we know how Terry feels about alto clarinets.A bass clarinet owner is just a warm water nerd. Diehard nerds own at least one Alto.
(Owning either, what does this make me?)
Conversely and not intuitively, owning a contrabass clarinet removes all nerdiness, nerdhood, ... whatever.
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RE: Amati instrument review,
I purchased an ATS-61 (Amati Tenor Sax, the pro model) on eBay several years back. "Brand new." Hard gig-bag case (i.e. "form fitting"). $500 US.
Yes, Amati was trying really hard to be Yamaha, that month. (Yamaha made a horn called the "YTS-61".)
The ATS-61 has been reviewed by other people on SOTW, so I won't go over ground that's already been covered, but I will say it was like they copied a Yamaha 62, but either had an incomplete set of plans and/or said, "We can do this better/cheaper than Yamaha!" This ended up with some odd additional posts and bumpers throughout the horn that hurt the horn's performance more than helped it.
It sounded "OK". Didn't have too much of an issue with the intonation. I don't remember that the horn had "weaker" metal than my trusty YAS-23. Must not have been too bad a horn, as it was stolen and never recovered.
I thought the case was OK, but it may have been aftermarket. The horn didn't come in plastic, so it may not really have been "new".
Amati makes saxophones for Keilwerth -- the EX series (currently) -- and may provide a good deal of parts for their other horns, so that can mean that they have some dedication to quality. It's just a question of how much.
Amati was "formed" from a bunch of other instrument makers in 1948: the most important, for saxophone folks, were Kohlert and Keilwerth (which moved from Czech. and continued their own lines of horns). The first Amati saxophones were bodies (and sometimes keywork) from Kohlert and Keilwerth horns. (Heck, some of them even retained the Keilwerth and Kohlert model names.)
I purchased an ATS-61 (Amati Tenor Sax, the pro model) on eBay several years back. "Brand new." Hard gig-bag case (i.e. "form fitting"). $500 US.
Yes, Amati was trying really hard to be Yamaha, that month. (Yamaha made a horn called the "YTS-61".)
The ATS-61 has been reviewed by other people on SOTW, so I won't go over ground that's already been covered, but I will say it was like they copied a Yamaha 62, but either had an incomplete set of plans and/or said, "We can do this better/cheaper than Yamaha!" This ended up with some odd additional posts and bumpers throughout the horn that hurt the horn's performance more than helped it.
It sounded "OK". Didn't have too much of an issue with the intonation. I don't remember that the horn had "weaker" metal than my trusty YAS-23. Must not have been too bad a horn, as it was stolen and never recovered.
I thought the case was OK, but it may have been aftermarket. The horn didn't come in plastic, so it may not really have been "new".
Amati makes saxophones for Keilwerth -- the EX series (currently) -- and may provide a good deal of parts for their other horns, so that can mean that they have some dedication to quality. It's just a question of how much.
Amati was "formed" from a bunch of other instrument makers in 1948: the most important, for saxophone folks, were Kohlert and Keilwerth (which moved from Czech. and continued their own lines of horns). The first Amati saxophones were bodies (and sometimes keywork) from Kohlert and Keilwerth horns. (Heck, some of them even retained the Keilwerth and Kohlert model names.)
Ben: You asked at what level of playing am I aiming. My goal is the best equipment I can buy. Even if I was a beginner, I'd want the best.
Clarinet is not my main axe, but on some old jazz tunes, I can use my clarinet to good effect . . . stuff originally done by Johnny Dodds and Bechet, etc., and make it credible.
I am not comfortable with clarinet for unfamiliar material . . . at least like I am on soprano saxophone. With a soprano saxophone, I can bluff my way through a tune so that listeners and fellow players would never know it was unfamiliar to me. I am not a reader - I am an old-jazz improvisor - an ear-player.
Having said that, I like nice things in watches, cars, firearms, and musical instruments -top-flight equipment. I own several altos, sopranos, and clarinets, and all are pro-level save for two soprano saxophones (a MKVI clone labeled KUSTOM - and an Antigua - they sound good enough and play good enough for serious work). For instance, at a gig yesterday, I played a 1928 Buescher straight soprano, a Selmer Ref 54 alto, and my Buffet RC Prestige clarinet.
If buying something new, I want it to play nicely from the git-go and not require that a tech do it over just to make it play. I realize that almost all instrument makers, be they from Paris, Japan, or China, etc., can turn out some dogs and right next them, display a real player.
But given a choice between Amati and Yamaha, I'd go with the Yamaha, especially if buying sight unseen. Cost and playing level is not my criteria. DAVE
Clarinet is not my main axe, but on some old jazz tunes, I can use my clarinet to good effect . . . stuff originally done by Johnny Dodds and Bechet, etc., and make it credible.
I am not comfortable with clarinet for unfamiliar material . . . at least like I am on soprano saxophone. With a soprano saxophone, I can bluff my way through a tune so that listeners and fellow players would never know it was unfamiliar to me. I am not a reader - I am an old-jazz improvisor - an ear-player.
Having said that, I like nice things in watches, cars, firearms, and musical instruments -top-flight equipment. I own several altos, sopranos, and clarinets, and all are pro-level save for two soprano saxophones (a MKVI clone labeled KUSTOM - and an Antigua - they sound good enough and play good enough for serious work). For instance, at a gig yesterday, I played a 1928 Buescher straight soprano, a Selmer Ref 54 alto, and my Buffet RC Prestige clarinet.
If buying something new, I want it to play nicely from the git-go and not require that a tech do it over just to make it play. I realize that almost all instrument makers, be they from Paris, Japan, or China, etc., can turn out some dogs and right next them, display a real player.
But given a choice between Amati and Yamaha, I'd go with the Yamaha, especially if buying sight unseen. Cost and playing level is not my criteria. DAVE
Unlike Dave, I don't wear a watch, I'm not interested in cars at all, and I hate firearms... but I am interested in clarinets I have a couple of very long and detailed reviews about Amati clarinets on my website. One about a low Eb bass clarinet, and one about their 211 model which is student model with wood body and plastic bell (with additions about their 201 model, made of plastic). The reviews are in Hebrew though, so here are a short summing up of them.
Amati ACL-211:
1. Tone hole edges relatively sharp, and could cause pads to tear sooner than they should. The instrument wasn't new but the pads looked worse than I thought they should.
2. Not meticulously made - had glue around pads that wasn't not cleaned, and a few keys didn't open enough (stuffy tone as a result).
3. Some keys were too hard and springy and some soft and springy. Not great for adjustment and feel when playing. This is partly because of the design, not only the material.
4. Flat springs slide on the body itself. They can eventually dig into the wood and create a bump, especially critical for throat A key. Some of the needle and also some of the flat springs were a little too hard, needed adjustment.
5. All natural cork throughout for key corks. Not the best material for this. Makes adjustment more difficult and feels worse (but better than Buffet's synthetic cork).
Now a little more good stuff....
6. Headless pivot screws which had enough friction to work.
7. The clarinet played ok, pretty good even. Decent tone for a student model. Intonation ok but not excellent.
Back to bad...
8. The stock mouthpiece was terrible. I wasn't completely useless (ie.e it played and had ok intonation), but it had a harsh tone and not great response. A better mouthpiece (a cheap Yamaha even) would be a huge improvement.
9. Usual characteristics of student modes - not the most even tone or response between notes and/or registers. Some notes shout a little more, and some are a little more stuffy (not so much on this clarinet though). Throat notes were ok.
I also checked a 201 model, all plastic, and found a few more things:
The same keys (like the B/F# trill key) were too low. I guess they just put a certain thickness of cork there automatically.
I also noticed another thing that I missed on the 211 model. The open tone hole for left hand third finger (the one you close for C/G) was a bit low on the instrument. It definitely felt strange compared with any clarinet I've tried. I don't know if this is always like this, or if they changed this at some point (because I don't remember it from the other supposedly identical model). This is strange especially considering this was a student model for people with smaller hands.
From what I could remember (didn't try them side by side) the tone, response, etc. of the plastic model was pretty much identical to the wood model.
I have also summed up my review of the Amati bass clarinet which you can near the end of this thread: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=264136&t=131689 (keep in mind I wasn't the most thorough in my translation)
I also checked an Amati student alto saxophone. I don't remember that much about it but it wasn't great. The main thing I remember is the keys were set at a wrong angle and/or with too thick pads. The mouthpiece was possibly the worse sax mouthpiece I have tried, useless, and the student needed a new mouthpiece. The stock bass clarinet mouhtpiece wasn't as bad but not good at all either.
I recently bought for myself an instrument under a different name but made by Amati. One rod screw slot was wrecked. I was told Amati use electric equipment for this which tend to wreck the slots.
For anyone who is interested, the reviews are on my website (link in signature).
Nitai
I have a couple of very long and detailed reviews about Amati clarinets on my website. One about a low Eb bass clarinet, and one about their 211 model which is student model with wood body and plastic bell (with additions about their 201 model, made of plastic). The reviews are in Hebrew though, so here are a short summing up of them.Amati ACL-211:
1. Tone hole edges relatively sharp, and could cause pads to tear sooner than they should. The instrument wasn't new but the pads looked worse than I thought they should.
2. Not meticulously made - had glue around pads that wasn't not cleaned, and a few keys didn't open enough (stuffy tone as a result).
3. Some keys were too hard and springy and some soft and springy. Not great for adjustment and feel when playing. This is partly because of the design, not only the material.
4. Flat springs slide on the body itself. They can eventually dig into the wood and create a bump, especially critical for throat A key. Some of the needle and also some of the flat springs were a little too hard, needed adjustment.
5. All natural cork throughout for key corks. Not the best material for this. Makes adjustment more difficult and feels worse (but better than Buffet's synthetic cork).
Now a little more good stuff....
6. Headless pivot screws which had enough friction to work.
7. The clarinet played ok, pretty good even. Decent tone for a student model. Intonation ok but not excellent.
Back to bad...
8. The stock mouthpiece was terrible. I wasn't completely useless (ie.e it played and had ok intonation), but it had a harsh tone and not great response. A better mouthpiece (a cheap Yamaha even) would be a huge improvement.
9. Usual characteristics of student modes - not the most even tone or response between notes and/or registers. Some notes shout a little more, and some are a little more stuffy (not so much on this clarinet though). Throat notes were ok.
I also checked a 201 model, all plastic, and found a few more things:
The same keys (like the B/F# trill key) were too low. I guess they just put a certain thickness of cork there automatically.
I also noticed another thing that I missed on the 211 model. The open tone hole for left hand third finger (the one you close for C/G) was a bit low on the instrument. It definitely felt strange compared with any clarinet I've tried. I don't know if this is always like this, or if they changed this at some point (because I don't remember it from the other supposedly identical model). This is strange especially considering this was a student model for people with smaller hands.
From what I could remember (didn't try them side by side) the tone, response, etc. of the plastic model was pretty much identical to the wood model.
I have also summed up my review of the Amati bass clarinet which you can near the end of this thread: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=264136&t=131689 (keep in mind I wasn't the most thorough in my translation)
I also checked an Amati student alto saxophone. I don't remember that much about it but it wasn't great. The main thing I remember is the keys were set at a wrong angle and/or with too thick pads. The mouthpiece was possibly the worse sax mouthpiece I have tried, useless, and the student needed a new mouthpiece. The stock bass clarinet mouhtpiece wasn't as bad but not good at all either.
I recently bought for myself an instrument under a different name but made by Amati. One rod screw slot was wrecked. I was told Amati use electric equipment for this which tend to wreck the slots.
For anyone who is interested, the reviews are on my website (link in signature).
Nitai
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Who's interested in, could find some photos of Amati instruments and detailed descriptions (incl. price) here:
http://www.amati.co.at/
kindly
Roman
http://www.amati.co.at/
kindly
Roman