Not A Buescher

pete

pete

Brassica Oleracea
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Possibly a Paul Beuscher stenciled horn, which were a grab-bag of Dolnets and Pierrets, mainly. Could be a Eugen Schuster Aristocrat, but I've seen enough of them to know that the G# cluster's all wrong. The post also mentions that it's got "Windsor" engraved on it, which actually was a Buescher stencil name. But, as I said, this horn isn't a Buescher.

Anyone have an opinion? The horn's at http://www.bluespeter1.de/aktuelles-tenor-alt under "Buescher Tenor Saxophon."
 
pete said:
Possibly a Paul Beuscher stenciled horn, which were a grab-bag of Dolnets and Pierrets, mainly. Could be a Eugen Schuster Aristocrat, but I've seen enough of them to know that the G# cluster's all wrong. The post also mentions that it's got "Windsor" engraved on it, which actually was a Buescher stencil name. But, as I said, this horn isn't a Buescher.

Anyone have an opinion? The horn's at http://www.bluespeter1.de/aktuelles-tenor-alt under "Buescher Tenor Saxophon."
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Has that got soldered tone holes? Look at the way the B tone hole meets the bell.
 
kevgermany said:
Take a look at the left pinky cluster on this Orsi... Not identical, but... Pity we can't see the bell brace.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Saxophon-Bar...930173?pt=Blasinstrumente&hash=item2ebf0f0cbd

There's also this World Master from the same vendor, has a similar, but different pinky cluster.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Alt-Saxophon...873937?pt=Blasinstrumente&hash=item43b08d86d1
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Couple interesting things in those links, kev:

* That Orsi bari has a plastic keyguard. I'm pleasantly surprised at that. I'm also thinking about putting it in my eBay Deals thread: it's 51 Euros and no reserve. I think. Google Translate ....
* The World Master horn is intriguing for a couple reasons. First, the ad explicitly says "Dörfler." I'm not 100% sure why. I don't *think* that the owner is trying to say the horn's of Dörfler & Jörka descent, but I dunno. IMO, if I had to guess, it's an FX Huller: "World" was one of the FX Huller model names and that G# cluster looks like the ones on FX Hullers. That funky bell-to-body brace is sorta like the FX Huller "VO" brace. The low C and Eb keys are the same shape, too. Check out this horn at Helen's website.

Anyhow, the main reason I'd think Pierret for the horn that started this thread is because that's one of the extremely few European makes that had left-side sheet metal keyguards, but I can't find an exact match.
 
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World Master today is an accordian maker in the Markneukirchen area. It came to being, much like B&S, in the post WWII instrument maker mergers imposed by E German govt. I don't know if there's any link between them and the sax.

I read this: 'dies Instrument stammt aus deutscher Fertigung und müsste Ende 50iger ,Anfang 60 iger Jahre von Dörfler hergestellt worden sein,' as saying

'This instrument is of German manufacture and must have been made by Dörfler at the end of the 50s or early 60s.

In other words, can't be sure, but there's no one else he can think of who'd have made it. Not sure if this would come out in Google translate. Perhaps Helen can correct me.

The seller, Bluespeter, seems to know his stuff, as Helen's commented in the past.

I missed the plastic guard on the Orsi. Oops.
 
pete said:
I'm also thinking about putting it in my eBay Deals thread: it's 51 Euros and no reserve. I think. Google Translate ....
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You're right, but don't get too excited about the price-quite some time to go and they snipe here. I also have a bid in on it, but I'm not expecting anything. This'll probably go somewhere between 500 and 800 euros. Too much for me.
 
That World Master alto that bluespeter1 is selling on the German eBay site has been around for a while. I've had it in my gallery for at least a couple of months now under the "mystery" category. While its round thumb screw looks D&J-like, the resemblance nearly ends there. You could also throw out Hammerschmidt as a possible maker, since they used the same neck-fastening screw. (As did Hohner, but they didn't make stencils.)

Whatever this is, I doubt it is a D&J, only because of the hundreds of D&Js I've seen, and of the ones I chosen to include in the world's largest D&J pictorial gallery, (which I'll be adding new stencil names and images to shortly BTW), there is nothing that resembles it. D&J worked in quantity to produce stencil horns that were JK The New King clones, and to a much lesser degree, Toneking copies (with a high F# key). A serial number might certainly help ID the sax, since D&J used sequential #s throughout their history, but bluespeter1 doesn't provide a number either on the eBay ad, or on the company's website....

Speaking of the company website, there they don't mention a D&J connection at all. There they just say it is from a German maker, but unfortunately further information/papers are lacking. I suspect that's a more fair assessment of the horn, since as I mentioned, the horn's been kicking around for a while. The text on eBay is the old one, so perhaps he has revised his thinking a bit when he did up his website, but just not updated his eBay ad.
 
Helen said:
That World Master alto that bluespeter1 is selling on the German eBay site has been around for a while. I've had it in my gallery for at least a couple of months now under the "mystery" category. While its round thumb screw looks D&J-like, the resemblance nearly ends there. You could also throw out Hammerschmidt as a possible maker, since they used the same neck-fastening screw. (As did Hohner, but they didn't make stencils.)

Whatever this is, I doubt it is a D&J, only because of the hundreds of D&Js I've seen, and of the ones I chosen to include in the world's largest D&J pictorial gallery, (which I'll be adding new stencil names and images to shortly BTW), there is nothing that resembles it. D&J worked in quantity to produce stencil horns that were JK The New King clones, and to a much lesser degree, Toneking copies (with a high F# key). A serial number might certainly help ID the sax, since D&J used sequential #s throughout their history, but bluespeter1 doesn't provide a number either on the eBay ad, or on the company's website....

Speaking of the company website, there they don't mention a D&J connection at all. There they just say it is from a German maker, but unfortunately further information/papers are lacking. I suspect that's a more fair assessment of the horn, since as I mentioned, the horn's been kicking around for a while. The text on eBay is the old one, so perhaps he has revised his thinking a bit when he did up his website, but just not updated his eBay ad.
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What do you think about my comment re: FX Huller?
 
pete said:
What do you think about my comment re: FX Huller?
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I'm not sure. My gut says no, because of the round thumb screw. They didn't use those. I'm wondering if this wasn't cobbled together by a small cottage industry shop somewhere in the German or other (?) countryside. Here's why I'm leaning towards this:
  • The linkages to the bell keys are not typically what you see in German horns. My Gallotone (which BTW is a mix match of Orsi & R&C parts is shaped like this), but German saxes with left sided bell keys like this FX Hüller World model, or this World Super, tend to look a bit different.
  • The bell to body brace is not a shape associated with FX so either.
  • The shape, design, and MOP touches on the key guards, remind me of the baritones that D&J had outsourced for them from a so-far-still-unknown manufacturer.
So while it could be an FX Hüller, I suspect that it might be neither fish nor fowl, but rather a strange hybrid of the two.
 
Back to the Not a Buescher, how 'bout Karl Meyer? It's got left-side bell keys, sheet-metal keyguards and it's German. The G# cluster's not exactly the same, though.

Karl Meyer was one of the manufacturers of the Selmer Pennsylvania models -- I think at least four companies made them for Selmer at different times.
 
Pete, I don't think Karl Meyer was a maker, just a brand name used by Selmer. Who they got the saxes from, I've no idea. Amati or VEB maybe, or maybe the Italians or one of the French makers.
 
Possibly. I've heard of weirder model names :).

I have done practically zero research on Karl Meyer. The only thing I heard was, "Some Selmer Pennsylvania horns were made by Karl Meyer," So let me try to verify your comment.

I did some really minor Googling and found a 1955 catalog that mentions KM: http://www.donmack.com/pages/selmer-london-catalogue-1955 and some further info on Selmer London at http://www.donmack.com/pages/the-story-of-henri-selmer-co-london. I looked at a few brasswind websites, too. It looks like Selmer London contracted with a variety of German makers and brought them under the banner of "Karl Meyer," more or less like the Pennsylvania was made by several different Germanic companies at different times. Interestingly, the brasswind 'sites suggest that these Germanic companies were making copies of American horns.
 
You got further than I did when I was considering one... I did some searching a while ago and found not a lot more than what I said above. Karl Meyer horns come up here every now and again, but not many. No idea if they were sold locally (looks likely from the catalogues) or brought over by individuals.
 
That Karl Myer is an Orsi stencil. Compare it to the Orsi horns in my my gallery. And BTW while you're in my Orsi stencil gallery, check out the Pennsylvania that Selmer had Orsi stencil for them. I have another Pennsylvania (a tenor I think) that I haven't uploaded yet as well.
 
The "O"-shaped bell to body brace is characteristic of the pro level Orsi. The student model horns had a simple brace like the Karl Myer here has. BTW, the Myer was on the US eBay site. The pics were really big. I've saved them for my gallery already.
 
Aaaaaannnnnnnddd, here's another Not a Buescher, but it's different from the first one I posted. It's not a Buescher that I've seen before, at least. Hey, it's also got rolled tone holes. I'd love to see the whole engraving.
 
Where did you find that one. I'd like to see the rest of the pics. I think I might have an idea what it is.
 
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