Not a Martin

flava

Hi,
This is my first post to this forum although I have lurked and learned for a time.

Please help me make sense of the following tenor I just bought. I don't know where to classify it.

Here are the pieces of the puzzle:
1. It says "Martin - Elkhart - Ind." on the bell
2. The Key guards, the neck, and key touch pieces are identical to a Kohlert Winnenden.
3. The LH pinky cluster is not like the Kohlert Winnenden but looks like what is on the Martin Indiana (i.e. no long roller for the Bb).
4. The serial number is 70XX and it has "K&H" stamped under it
5. The horn seems to be 1940ish to mid 1960is
6. Oh yes, it has domed soldered toneholes!

It plays great, beating my Buescher 1954 Aristo III Tenor. It has an amazing sound.

It does not play or feel like a "student" horn.

What is it?
I posted a request for help and pictures in the "Martin" thread in SOTW and have drawn a big blank. Any ideas?
 
Hello there flava.

Welcome to the Woodwind forum. What would help a lot, would be if you uploaded the photos also to your own photo album here on the WF. Go to:

User CP (upper left in dark blue band if you're using the default theme) >
All Albums> Add Album> Give It A Title, Description, & Make It Public > Submit >Upload Pictures

If you have any troubles, let either myself, or one of the the other admins know. I'll be working on my computer a large part of the day, and you've got my email address already, so you can just email me if you like.

I'm looking forward to seeing photos of this mystery horn, and again, let me welcome you to the WF....helen
 
MyMartinTenor said:
Standard: I owned a "Handcraft Standard" tenor. It lacked the alt-Eb key, so themartinstory.net calls it a "Standad Special" although the word "Special" wasn't engraved anywhere. This played A LOT like a Comm-I or Comm-II tenor. Bit more focus than the other models, bit more refined air required. Somewhat less volume, but nice and versatile. Here's a quick soundclipe I did on the Standard when I was trying to sell it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JQPitaIayc

Again, the lacquer on this horn was terrible. Mine was a total closet horn and had most of its original lacquer. But it burned really easily, and when the bell lip got a little bend it cracked easily.

This horn definitely liked a mouthpiece with a little baffle. With a link-type piece it sounded pretty dead, but with a baffled piece it got a nice crisp sound.
Click to expand...

I checked over a Martin Handcraft Standard Special at one time too. Beautiful sounding horn. I have pictures in this album.
http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=91

I might just start getting GAS for a martin tenor. Martin's are about the only US vintage horns that I really liked for some reason.
 
Photos of Martin (Kohlert) Mystery Horn uploaded

Helen said:
Hello there flava.

Welcome to the Woodwind forum. What would help a lot, would be if you uploaded the photos also to your own photo album here on the WF. Go to:

User CP (upper left in dark blue band if you're using the default theme) >
All Albums> Add Album> Give It A Title, Description, & Make It Public > Submit >Upload Pictures

If you have any troubles, let either myself, or one of the the other admins know. I'll be working on my computer a large part of the day, and you've got my email address already, so you can just email me if you like.

I'm looking forward to seeing photos of this mystery horn, and again, let me welcome you to the WF....helen
Click to expand...

Hi Helen,
Thanks for the welcome and tips on how to create an album.
I just uploaded 8 pictures of the horn to a public album "Martin-Kohlert (Winnenden) Tenor?"
Here is the link to the album
http://www.woodwindforum.com/forums/album.php?albumid=92

Again, it has domed toned holes, it has a serial number of 7XXX with "K&C" stamped under it. It is a really amazing sounding horn. It is solid and well-made.
There is secondary evidence (receipt in case from Band Repair store) with former owner's name and a Music Program from a University Band with the owner's name as a tenor saxophonist in it from 1969, that means that the horn is pre-1969.

The appearanc eof the horn leads me to think that the serial number is more in line with the Kohlert Winnie series than the Martin second line sequence.

Hope you can help me make sense of what it is.
 
I'll sitck my neck out (pun intended) and say early Winnenden, just before they moved to pressed steel guards. Early to mid 50s.
 
Why a Winnenden with "Martin" on the bell

Kev,
Thanks for the info. Do you (or anybody) know:
(1) Why it would have "Martin" on the bell?
(2) Why is the LH pinky cluster different from the Winnenden's of this period?
 
Pete...paging Pete. What do you think? Do you know of any Kohlerts without rolled tone holes? Do you know of a Martin/Kohlert connection? Maybe another Martin company? Do I remember correctly about there being another another company called "Martin", and it being German? Or am I making it up in my head?

I must admit this one has me rather rather stumped flava, which is why I'm glad you posted here.

One thing I've learned about vintage saxophones, is that every time you figure one mystery out, 2 more pop up. :rolleyes:
 
A German Martin?

Helen,
Everyone seems to be stumped on this one.
The German Martin hypothesis makes water given that the bell is inscribed with "Martin-Elkhart-Ind."

If you look at the image on the bell and the lettering, it seems like it was done in the Kohlert factory. The image is angular intersecting trapezoids, like Kohlerts. The lettering (i.e. font) is not longhand or has serifs. This strongly suggests that it was done by Kohlert workers.

A likely explanation is that Kohlert produced this horn to fulfill some contract it had with Martin that has not been yet unearthed.

The scenario I have come up in my head is:

Horn produced by Kohlert but inscribed with the Martin name (probably treading a grey area on then existing international laws about rules of origin) and the Indiana-type LH pinky cluster added to differentiate the horn from the Kohlert Winnenden to meet customs requirements it in the eyes of West German and US trade authorities.

THus, rather this was an early expression of the internationalization of sax production that has exploded in the past decade. Could Kohlert have had such an agreement with the US-based Martin?

What do you think?

What makes me feel ambiguous about the above scenario is: Why aren't there at least a couple of other horns like mine out there? Why not more known about this alleged production agreement between Kohlert and US-based Martin?

Will wait some time to see if other hypotheses and info comes in. Then I guess I will have to hire a private eye, trace and interview the original owner of the horn?
 
odd,

here's the info I have about the Martin clan ...
Apparently some of the Martin brothers worked for York in Battle Creek, Michigan USA. After which they struck out on their own in 1904 and founded "The Martin Band Instrument Company".

Their father, John Martin, started the original "The Martin Company" in 1865 in Chicago. Martin was an immigrant from Germany in that year. In 1871 the factory was destroyed by fire. And in 1871 he moved to Elkhart, Indiana and became one of the original workers, the 6th employee, to work for C.G. Conn.

Their saxophones are very distinctive as they have soldered on toneholes. The toneholes were fairly thick compared to regular drawn toneholes and they were also beveled. The horns are best repadded with rivet or rivetless pads for a smooth & darker tone.
Click to expand...
 
exceprt from
http://www.themartinstory.net/version7/whatyou-company-info.php

John Henry Martin was born Februari 24, 1835 in Dresden (Germany) under the name Johann Heinrich Martin.
He learned to make instruments in Germany as an apprentice from 1850-54 by Christian Aug. Hammig of Markneukirchen (Germany), according to records in the Musikinstrumenten-Museum in that village.

In 1855 he emigrated to the USA and followed his trade, first in New York, later (in 1865) he moved to Chicago.
The "The Martin Company" was founded by him in 1865 (other sources claim arround 1890) in Chicago.

In 1871 the factory was destroyed by the great Chicago fire. The family was reunited three days after the fire when they met on the shores of Lake Michigan.

In 1876 the family moved to Elkhart ...
Click to expand...

Thus the family definitely had connections back to Germany.

About what year was that horn made ?
 
The horn's 50s. Possibly late 40s, but the S/N seems to be too high.

Yes Helen, the early Winendens did have soldered tone holes. They're rather rare.

Can't explain the lh keys, though. Maybe it was camouflage?
 
The Bell Keyguards remind me of the martin Centennial of 1941 - 1942 and serial number 137-143xxx
or Committee IIIs from 1945-1970, sn 144-350xxx
or Music Man 1962-1964
or Magna

anyways ... sees to be some cues there in the Martins (or vice versa)
 
Kohlert-Martin

The horn has soldered tone holes (with curved side walls (domed)). These are not beveled and not rolled.

If we consider it a Kohlert, then the SN (7XXX) does line up with the time period outlined by Steve. It would be a 1954 Kohlert Winnenden if the Kohlert SNs on saxpics are accurate.

Thanks
 
Flava, not sure if you found it yet, but this site has a lot about the US Martins.

http://www.themartinstory.net/version7/index.php

My guess is that about all it's going to do is confirm your suspicions that it's a stencil. Might be worth emailing the owner with the pics as well. But I guess he doesn't know of this particular model/stencil.

However I do think you have a fairly rare instrument.


Does this ring any bells?

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kohlert-Saxo...113018?pt=Blasinstrumente&hash=item43b22d297a
 
Similar to mine (except for LH pinkie cluster). It has K&C stamped

Kev,
I did email the owner of themartinstory.net website and have not heard from him yet.

Thanks for the link to the Regent on German ebay. It looks like mine except for the LH Pinkie Cluster.

Does it have beveled tone holes? I can't tell from the pix but the side walls are the same shape as mine (mine is not beveled or rolled).

The exciting thing from your photos is that this model has serial number in the same letter style (font) as mine confirming mine was stamped with a SN in the Kohlert factory. Plus..... just like mine it has "K&C" under the serial number. Another pull towards Kohlert and away from Elkhart, Ind.

Would you know what "K&C" stands for in the pictures from the link you sent me?

In any case, thanks for pulling one more veil from this mystery horn.
Flava
 
"K&C" Stands for "Kohlert and Company"

In the search for answers, about the my Martin/Kohlert, it seems that Kohlert was stamping some saxes "Made in Germany" and other with "K&C" under the serial number.
Reasons for this probably have to do with then existing rules of origin. Kev has posted a link to a Kohlert Regent from German ebay that also has "K&C" stamped under the serial number in the same "font" as mine.

Below is an extract from Dennis Gazarek's account of the Amati Saxophones in Kraslice (Czechoslovakia) from whence Kohlert, and the Keilwerth brothers emigrated to Germany after the fall of Hitler.

"In 1947 after nationalization, a number of the old Kohlert management and workers left Kraslice and established a new saxophone manufacturing company (Kohlert & Co) in Winnenden near Stuttgart in West Germany. Unfortunately their products never reached the previous acclaim and success."
Gazarek is obviously a big fan and defender of Amati saxes.

If anyone knows about the economic history of Kohlert after 1947 and production/commercial agreements with the US-based Martin company, we could fully unravel the origins of my horn. I am content with it and plan to spend more time on playing it that researching its origns.

THanks to everyone for their help.
 
Kohlert and its 10 year fixed-price agreement with US firms

This now begins to make sense.

The horn I have (from 1954 if we follow the Kohlert Winnenden serial numbers), must have been at the early phase of this ten year agreement which seems to have also included the US based Martin company. These early 1950s horns --Martin/Kohlerts-Winnies -- were of superb quality.

Later, other US firms were also part of this incredibly ill-advised ten year agreement (probably due to the Kohlert family having to start anew in Germany from scratch) to offer musical instruments at fixed prices for US producers/market.

Towards the 1960s, as this agreement became more economically unsustainable, vultures of lesser rank, jumped on the bandwagon. Ergo, Steve's link to the story told below in the Clarinet Board:

"I think I've found the answer. The tipoff was a sale tag in a Kohlert Bixley alto sax I bought on the unmentionable Internet auction site; the tag had a New York address with the word "Bixley" in it. Unfortunately I didn't keep the tag, but a bit of digging on the Internet came up with this (from the scan of a catalog, apparently from the late 1960s, of multimedia resources for public school music teachers printed by the State of New York Board of Education):

"Wm. R. Cratz Co., Inc., 14 Bixley Heath, Lynbrook, N.Y.11563.
Importers of Kohlert woodwinds; Bohm Meinl brass band instru-ments; Hofner guitars and stringed instruments; Buchner stringed instruments; and Dr. Thomastic strings, tailpieces, and rosin."

So now we know (a) who bankrupted Kohlert, and (b) why some of the models from the 1960s are labeled "Bixley"."

Yet, my horn would seem to indicate that it was in the early 1950s when the wheels were set in motion that have tragic results for the Kohlert firm.

I have even more respect for my Kohlert-Winnenden-Martin tenor now. Like every horn, it contains not only the spirit of previous players, but it also embodies the histories of the workers, craftspeople, communities, and business owners that somehow brought it to life.

Nonetheless, this attempt at the economic history of the Kohlert-Martin relatinoship, as plausible as it seems, needs further evidence.

(By the way, thaks Steve for helping to connect the dots)
 
This is the first web link I've seen linking Kohlert to a specific US company. Like you say it needs more research.


I'd also be careful about being definite about Martin as the US co. Pre war Kohlert were a large stencil maker, this included Selmer (Pennsylvania Special) and earlier H White in the US. I'm no expert, but it's the first Martin stencilled Kohlert I've seen.

To me the toneholes on your sax looked identical to the ones on the Kohlert I linked to. That horn's been up for sale for a while, and I think the seller bought it on ebay a few months back. I'd love it, but it's way beyond my means.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom