Orpheo bass saxophone

This caught my attention today

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORPHEO-BASS-SAX...temQQimsxZ20090125?IMSfp=TL090125169004r31215

Anyone ever give one these a toot? I've read all the history behind the designer, maker and seller (haven't we all?). So I'm not interested in all that. The question is... can this beast really blow for so cheap a price?

I'm not looking to buy or anything. Heck, I couldn't even fit it in my car to take it anywhere. I can't imagine the "discussion" with my fiance if I brought that home :emoji_rolling_eyes: Just curious. I stumbled on it while looking at their bari models as I maybe wanting to sell my Bb and get a a bari with low A.
 
A good question, and one that I've often thought through without a satisfactory conclusion in my mind.

I've done a fair bit of machinist work as a young tad, and I have machined a number of "precision" items where slots/keyways were cut in shafts that I had turned from bar stock. While not the simplest of tasks, it is quite possible (given the right equipment and skills) to cut things to thousandths of an inch precision, to drill accurate holes into the side of the same, and so forth. Doing the same with a piece of maple with the appropriate tooling would be easy enough. Tedious, requiring a lot of attention to detail, but easy enough.

Fabrication of the keywork would be of a much higher magnitude of difficulty, but not beyond the pale - others have been doing it for a long, long time.

But, getting all of those skills together in one place is another thing entirely. If it wasn't all that difficult, we'd be hearing about Heckel of Burlington, or wherever else fine bassoons would be made under such conditions. And, we know that they are not.

However...

Just like the good old days, when everything turned out east of Suez was automatically termed either native art or junk, there is a tendency to assign the label "crap" to Chinese musical instruments. (I say Chinese here, but just as appropriate would be Pakistani, Indian or Indonesian.) And, while that might be true now, it can (and has) changed in a hurry.

While we now look at Japanese products as high tech, precision, and as the end result of quality fabrication techniques, it was not always so. 'Twas a time when Japanese products were anything but "quality". Prewar Japanese Mauser patent rifles were poorly machined (even before we were bombing them back to the Stone Age), their motor vehicles were junk, and their aircraft fabrication was as sloppy as something done by a second grader.

Remember tin toys from Japan, immediately post-war? Same thing. Japanese cars from the 1950's and 1960's were also on the "tinny" side.

But then, something happened. In the space of perhaps ten years, Japanese adherence to the quality assurance teachings of Demming and others worked a minor revolution. Where the Japanese cars I rented in 1970 while in Japan on R & R and medical evacuation were pieces of junk, the first Japanese car that I bought in 1977 was tight, well built and worth every penny that I paid for it.

Yamaha pianos have always been quality items, at least the ones that I've seen. Their saxophones are also rock solid, if not everyone's cup of tea. Their electronics are first rate. Even so lowly of a product as the commercial flush toilet is, when produced by Toyo in Japan, flaw free over thousands of units.

And, the ways of the rest of Asia are following suit. Korea, once the equivalent of 1960's Japan, is now producing high quality (if perhaps not first quality) computers, automobiles and consumer goods. Ditto Taiwan/Nationalist China, and (to a certain extent) Real China and India. (There are some pretty robust agricultural machines being turned out on the Subcontinent.

If Japan can do it, so too (eventually) can China and Indonesia and (shudder) India. It may take more years than any of us here have left to us, but eventually it could happen.

When I was enjoying myself to no end, out in the boonies of the Republic of Vietnam, I spent quite a bit of time with the ARVN troops stationed outside of their major city of Pleiku. (My tank was the last one in the line of vehicles protecting Highway 19, and their armored cavalry regiment in the area had an outpost a couple of hundred meters down the highway.) While we Yankees mostly had modern equipment, the ARVN had a odd mix of modern and obsolete stuff, among which were a number of obsolete and obsolescent US small arms.

One of the weirdest things that I got to see (out of some pretty weird stuff) was a pair of Thompson submachine guns. Both were quite old, but a quality firearm well cared for can last for many, many years, just like a good horn. The bluing/browning was a bit worn here and there, but otherwise they were in very good shape.

The oldest of the two was a commercial model of the weapon dating back to the 1920's, this by the patent and manufacturer markings on the receiver. Big fins on the barrel, sculpted front hand grip, calibrated sights, butt stock fittings and all, it looked like it had just been taken from the hands of one of Big Al's torpedoes. (Alas, no drum magazine.)

The other was patterned after the first US military version of the weapon, introduced into production around 1942 or so. I say "patterned", because it was actually a Chinese copy, produced somewhere in the depths of Nationalist China at some time during the long, drawn out war against the Communists and the Japanese. Much more severe in appearance, this weapon was finished to military standards rather than to commercial ones.

However, in overall attention to detail, such as mill work around the edges of the receiver, fitting of the bolt and H piece within the receiver, the cleanup work within the receiver and all of that, it was a better piece of work. Only if you looked at it very closely did you see that much of the finish work on the Chinese copy was done with files and abrasives rather than with milling machines. (The twist in the rifling was also different, presumably with the American made one being correct and the Chinese one being accomplished with whatever equipment the Chinese found to hand.)

Both weapons functioned just fine, with the Chinese one being slightly more accurate when used as a carbine, probably due to the increase in the rifling twist. They both sounded the same too, having the characteristic "typewriter" sound caused by the pieces in the receiver rattling along as they moved. (You'd know the sound in an instant if you would ever heard it - they sound like no other automatic weapon on the planet, and very much like a manual, non-weaponry, Remington or Underwood.)

(And, neither was a pleasure to shoot. The "Tommy gun" uses a very heavy bullet (for a pistol round) which, even with the Cutts compensator at the front, the muzzle climbs so much after the first two rounds that it is virtually impossible to aim. Don't believe what you saw on The Untouchables...)

Now, if some poor peasant with a roll of tools and some bar stock steel can pull something like that off in 1943 era mainland China, I would submit that pulling off a decent saxophone or clarinet or bassoon there is only a matter of time. Gunsmithing and musical instrument manufacturing are similar in a number of ways, and there are an awful lot of Chinese there wanting to make money from something - why not a Zhang of Guandong bassoon?

Maybe not this decade, and perhaps not even the next. But, with the shining example of Yamaha to use as a standard of comparison, it will happen, sooner or later. European and American (and increasingly Japanese and Taiwanese) wage scales are pricing our goods out of the market, and the third world will fill in the vacuum, sure as a gun.
 
The future is here...

Terry, it is already happening, at least with saxophones.

A friend of mine is a pro in Seattle, and teaches saxophone. One of his students bought a $100 curved soprano, and brought it to his lesson. Expecting a piece of ****, he was surprised to find that it actually played quite well, felt good and solid, and even looked nice. Better than some he'd played, by reputable makers.
 
I've seen the Chinese-made bass saxophones marketed under the name of International Woodwinds. While I did not play them, I heard the Buescher/Conn-copy version played and it had the same resonance of the old horns, plus what sounded like a good scale.

They also had in a display a more modern designed bass saxophone much like the Selmers.

So, I'm guessing that the horn made the subject of this thread is an Asian-made horn similar to the IW horns (the photos here showed split bell pads).

Terry, you are right about the Thompsons . . . it isn't so much the weight of the bullet (most fully-automatic weapons are inaccurate for the second and subsequent shots) as much as the falling-bolt design. I spent an afternoon last year firing Thompsons and H&K MP5's (in 10MM). Great fun but no precision. DAVE
 
True, but I could hold a M-16 on a man sized target on full auto as long as I was braced. Can't do that with the Thompsons, no way no how.

The ARVN also had the classic M-1919 .30 machine guns and the horrid BAR. The former was about twice the weight of our M-60s, and the latter was (in a word) worthless. Why we settled on that during World War I is beyond my ken, particularly since we had access to the Lewis gun.

After humping an M-60 around during the occasional dismounted ambush, I found that a baritone sax was a featherweight. And, the noise it made was much more pleasing to the ear...
 
I've seen the Chinese-made bass saxophones marketed under the name of International Woodwinds. While I did not play them, I heard the Buescher/Conn-copy version played and it had the same resonance of the old horns, plus what sounded like a good scale.

They also had in a display a more modern designed bass saxophone much like the Selmers.

At the International Saxophone Symposium there were the two IW bass horns on display in the vendor area. I didn't try them out myself (or any other sax there) 'cause the vendor area was a crazy packed loud zoo and I wanted to get out of there before I got a headache. Like you, I did listen to someone playing one and it sounded pretty good. The construction looked a bit cheap. I wonder if the IW horns and Orpheo are the same.

Seems to me many "pro" horns have gotten out hand in terms of price. I know things like rising materials and labor costs plus unfavorable exchange rates have come into play here. But, also marketing and distribution chain markups are adding too high a percentage to the take home price IMO. I think we're going to see even better quality horns from the newer players taking up the middle ground niche that's been left behind.
 
I realize this is off-topic (to an extent - it IS a response to Terry's recent post). When I was in LAPD and in Metropolitan Division with SWAT (SWAT was D-Platoon; I was in B-Platoon), we did a little experiment with M-16's. Ten officers (me included - as sergeant) loaded 20 rounds each and fired automatic bursts (short, just enough to achieve firing, then release the trigger) at man-sized silhouette targets at 25 yards. We hit around 20%. We were fully prone - no bracing but still a solid hold.

Then, we loaded another 20 rounds each and fired semi-auto (one trigger pull = one shot) as fast as we could and increased our hit-rate to over 80%. The M-16 was just as inaccurate at full-auto as most other machine guns.

I've been told that the MP-5 is probably the most easily controlled of all sub-guns, but my experience with the 10MM MP-5 wasn't too convincing. Of course, the 10MM is really hot, so that may contribute to its climbing.

As to bass saxophones, if I were in the market for one, I'd take a serious look at the IW models (based on the Conn-Buescher tubes, though - not the Selmer-style). DAVE
 
After listening to the muzzle blast from four or five rounds from the main gun on my M-48A3, noise made by anything else, weapon or saxophonic, was pretty academic. By that point, your ears were ringing so much that you had the cartoon birds flying around your head for the rest of the day.

We had no ear plugs either. The weapons noise was secondary to the perpetual whine from the air cleaners right behind me, and the even more pervasive sound of the radio squelch hissing in the headphones. Not a good environment for someone otherwise involved in music.

I am still trying to get my head around the concept of an Anvil case for a bass saxophone. Hauling a bass around in a Plywood box was bad enough, but all of that reenforcement and metal and all must really add up.
 
one of the guys on SOTW has one for his bass. 96 lbs empty. He uses it as a coffee table.

That alone usually forbids ordering such apparatuses from overseas. :emoji_rolling_eyes:

Aside - to get back to topic - I think that today (with today's machinery park and CNC and all) everyone determined enough can slap an instrument together, with reasonable tuning, stability and whatever else seems to be important. I don't really doubt that in fact everyone (from the Big 'Uns down to the lowly "house brand" sellers) is doing that to a bigger or lesser extent.
The real art (and quite possible the real $$$, as it is labour-intense) is in polishing that diamond in the rough. Voicing, fine-tuning, balancing the key action, cryo- (uh, cancel that) and such "invisible" tasks may place one instrument ahead of the big crowd. And I really think that a good, professional, seasoned craftsperson from India does not cost all that much less than his or her counterpart in the West. They're probably as scarce there as they are here.
(I am extrapolating my own investment of work to improve an instrument from "usable" to "good and sturdy", you can bury hours and hours there if you really want). In a nutshell - IMO the price difference is in the finish, not the bare necessities.
 
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This caught my attention today

http://cgi.ebay.com/ORPHEO-BASS-SAX...temQQimsxZ20090125?IMSfp=TL090125169004r31215

I've read all the history behind the designer, maker and seller (haven't we all?). So I'm not interested in all that. The question is... can this beast really blow for so cheap a price?

I assume you're referring to Steve Goodson? I too assumed he was, because it had a number of design features that resembled his, so I asked him about it just the other day on the Bass Sax Co-op when I noticed the significant price drop on the this horn on eBay. He said that he was not involved with the design of the Orpheo Bass. In Steve's words:
Helen:
I had nothing to do with the Orpheo bass saxophone. They are off the shelf horns with the Orpheo brand on them. I know the actual maker of the instruments very well, and they are an outstanding value. The exact
same instrument is sold under various brands at higher prices.
As far as your question: can this beast really blow for so cheap a price? Well...I guess for 4K you would find out. No one here, nor any of the hundreds of readers who have read my 3 or so blog posts over the last 6 months about new, cheap Asian basses, have seemed to have played one. Actually strike that. I did have a reader comment a few days ago that he did play an Orpheo, that it sucked, and that he preferred the vintage Buescher bass. Unfortunately he offered nothing else to give some insight into his view, such as what was bad about it: the build, the key action, uneven scale, etc... You can check out the blog post and comments for yourself if you like. There's also a link in it to the original post on the Orpheo bass.

While the responses to this thread have all talked about the sound about the IW bass, also Asian-produced, one thing that no one has talked about is the quality of the build of these new low-end bass saxophones compared to their higher end counter parts like Selmer, Keilwerth, & even higher end Eppelsheim. That's what I'm really interested in. As all of us who play bass saxophone know, bass saxophones are prone to issues that the smaller members of the saxophone family are more immune to... The biggest one being regulation problems.

I cannot imagine that a $4,000 bass is going to keep its regulation very well. How strong are the rods? How strong is the metal? Just playing a bass will cause it to lose it regulation over time. Vintage bass saxes were built as pro horns, to a higher quality. Same is true for the high end bass saxes of today. I truly believe the old adage: You get what you pay for.

I'm not saying that these cheaper Asian saxes are all pieces of crap. I personally haven't tried them, nor have I examined them. I do however wonder how it is possible to build a high quality item, that will withstand the rigors of use, for so little money. I don't see how it's possible. Are the factory workers making more than 5 cents an hour? What kind of working conditions are we supporting by buying these instruments? Lots of questions come to mind that go way beyond the quality aspect of the horn we're talking about. But I digress...

It would be interesting to hear from 2 groups of people with regards to Asian bass saxes: 1. Players who own, or have actually played the saxes, and who don't have endorsement deals with a company, and 2. Techs who have had an opportunity to work on these new horns and would be able to comment on the quality of the build vis-à-vis the vintage bass saxophones which have stood the test of time such as the Conn and Buescher. Or even better, would be comparing the quality of the new Asian horns to the European ones, if a tech had had the opportunity to work on some of those.
 
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A pro who shall remain nameless at this point told me that none of the new low-priced bass saxes coming out of Asia would interest him yet. He and most of us of suspect that given time, they will come up to spec. But so far, they are not there. Maybe if you are a world-class tech you could get one of these into spec, but like Helen sez, they most likely would come out of regulation pretty easily.

BTW, the world-class instrument repair techs seem to own vintage Conns, Bueschers, and some new Eppelsheims. That should tell you something. This is not a mystery to me. For the average bass sax player I recommend you go with the table odds and get a decent bass sax. That includes the ones from Keilwerth and Selmer.

If you are really lucky, like I was, you can find one that needs some work. My Buescher was damaged badly, but that only took a couple of hours for Paul Woltz to fix, including adding a spit valve! I know, because I sat with him through the whole process.
 
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I am not familiar with the bass sax in question, but I would like to amplify Helen's comments about construction if I may. All of the larger woodwinds have longer rods and longer keys. The engineering and geometry of the design is critical, not to mention the quality of the metals and materials. A .001" shift in the lever of key with a sloppy post can cause the key cup to shift .005" to the right or left causing the pad to leak---even if it had a perfect seat from the factory.

My suggestion to anyone planning to invest this much money in a bass sax would be to get one with a return privilege and pay a good tech $150 - $200 to strip it down and inspect how well it is built and the quality of materials. That low purchase price can evaporate in a hurry if the sax in in the shop every month for a $200 adjustment and regulation to keep it working.

John
 
The last time I visited IW's booth at NAMM (that was last year's show, not this past January's show) and saw their advertisements (can't recall where), the price of their Buescher-Conn-style bass saxophone was around $7500, appreciably more expensive than the Orpheo questioned here.

I have no real experience with bass saxes except that I spent one evening a few years ago playing a friend's at a rehearsal for most of the evening. But I have been in plenty of bands that had good bass sax players in them (Paul Woltz being one such player). Once, the player had a Selmer. All the others were the Buescher-Conn style. To my ears, the Buescher-Conn horns had much more oomph in their tone than did the Selmer. Could be the player, true, but I was not impressed with the Selmer's sound.

At the show where the salesman played the IW for me, it had that same depth of tone that I recall from the horns being played in bands where I was playing. Just looking at them side-by-side (the Buescher-Conn style alongside the Selmer style) there was an obvious difference in bell size (the Selmer style being noticeably smaller). I'm guessing that could have some bearing on OOMPH. DAVE
 
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I cannot imagine that a $4,000 bass is going to keep its regulation very well.
I don't know what happened to Charles Fail. A few years ago they had a Conn Stencil bass in good shape completely overhauled for $4K. It actually took a few weeks to sell. I still regret not buying it but the timing was bad for me. Surely not something that will come around again. FWIW, I have heard from a local repairman, who used to evaluate horns for Keilwerth until their latest change in ownership, that the IW sax is cheaply built compared to the old Bueschers and Conn.
 
Good memory Dave! WWBW's original price on the IW 601, which is patterned after the vintage American basses was $7,999. In fall last year they dropped that to $6,499. At that same time, the Orpheo bass saxes were $5495. Were the IW's really worth $1,000 more? Who knows? I sure don't. It's pretty subjective anyway.

As far as the OOMPH goes, many players will tell you that they prefer the vintage American horns over the European ones for exactly that reason. They may not call it OOMPH though. ;-)
 
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