Periodic eBay sweep

SOTSDO

SOTSDO

Old King Log
Staff member
CE/Moderator
Made my customary sweep of the auction site this evening, and found some interesting Selmer clarinets. Plenty of full Boehm A clarinets from the Centered Tone and Series 9 era, including one from Sofia Bulgaria - I wonder if they are as bad as Italy as regards eBay fraud.

Also present was a series of highly overpriced Selmer pro horns. Amounts in the $3,000 range for Series 9, 10, Balanced Tone and Radio Improved. Good luck with that!

Finally, there was a professional Selmer alto clarinet, going for all of $400 or so. They say that an auction is the best way to determine the value of an item...
 
More insanity...

A similar search for Leblanc instruments produced two "professional" bass clarinets with the "on the body" register keys and the fork Eb on the lower joint (no mention of any of this in the listings), plus a whole series of white bread professional models (including one Pete Fountain model with none of the extra keywork; indeed, there was not a single trace of the Leblanc tendencies towards elaborate instruments - not one) and a couple of the Backun modified instruments.

I played one of these once and didn't notice a thing about it that would have made it worth the premium paid for the instrument. Aside from the whole thing looking silly as hell (like a mismatched two toned automobile, really) neither bell nor barrel seemed to influence the tone, the feel of the horn, or the response of the instrument.

Mr. Backun seems to make a very good living doing all of this (including now a series of Buffet horns), but I can't help feeling that it's just a lot of very expensive wood turning. You notice that he doesn't extend his making skills to doing the whole clarinet (although the "right hand C# trill key" is a step in that direction.

Plus, there was on Leblanc alto clarinet (with the on the body register key), substantially overpriced as well. Sigh...
 
Yes i saw all those A's yesterday Terry,

Coincidentally, I was contacted by a retired principal clarinetist from a major symphony about selling me his instruments, including a Selmer alto clarinet. He had what seemed like alot of emotional attachment to his instruments.

And priced his horns accordingly .... based on retail and insured value.
He wanted me to buy one of his Eb at the same price I could buy a new one for and said I could sell it after some work for the current retail price.

ummm ... right

Emotional attachment can really disrupt pricing. Also people reading about pricing from insured values really throw their values off.
 
Well, if you get someone to bite at that price, you are home free. I imagine that none of the dealers thereon are declaring held horns as "inventory" so they are free of the worries of inventory taxes and the like. If they did, the values would be set much lower.
 
Y'know, I wonder if, when an ad says "or best offer" and the best offer is $1.25 if the seller HAS to take it, per eBay rules.
 
pete said:
Y'know, I wonder if, when an ad says "or best offer" and the best offer is $1.25 if the seller HAS to take it, per eBay rules.
Click to expand...

The Seller can reject any offer sent to them and simply not sell.
But i think you are only allowed to do 1 Best Offer for an auction. Then you have to wait for it to be relisted to do another offer.

I tried and tried again on a Selmer Trumpet that the seller originally had for $400 then boosted it up to $800. relaq, mouthpipe damage, et all. I tried to Best Offer it back to my original Best Offer of sub $400. It was there for months ...
 
SOTSDO said:
I played one of these [Backun models] once and didn't notice a thing about it that would have made it worth the premium paid for the instrument. Aside from the whole thing looking silly as hell (like a mismatched two toned automobile, really) neither bell nor barrel seemed to influence the tone, the feel of the horn, or the response of the instrument.
Click to expand...

The new professional line of Cannonball clarinets we carry in our store come with a choice of the Backun style barrels and bells, and so I have had the opportunity to both play and listen to them played with different combinations.

There is a significant difference in the timbre of the sound throughout the range of the clarinet going between a "traditional" barrel and the different models of Backun style "Arezzo" barrels. The same is true for the bells, but the effect seems to be more pronounced in the lowest range of the instrument when the different bells are used.

I am a traditionalist by nature and didn't care for the look of these at first (just like the exotic finishes and stones on their saxophones), but I am finding that over time I am getting more used to the look. Mostly I am intrigued by the pallet of different tonal colors that are available for different types of performance venues that these choices of barrels and bells provide.

More information can be found at this link: http://www.cannonballmusic.com/bellchoices.php Because they are "turned" locally from aged and dried imported woods, the Arezzo bells and barrels are significantly more affordable than the Backun brand.
 
For what it's worth, I also like the look of the Backun barrels and bells because they have that retro-Renaissance look. 'Course I'm only going by looks. I'd like to try a horn with and without the bell/barrel to see how they work for me and if the difference justifies the price.

Although I would probably like it more if the clarinet body, barrel and bell were all made out of the same thing. Aesthetics, baby!

I see that they have the gold-plated keywork available, too, on those Cannonballs.
 
SteveSklar said:
Yes i saw all those A's yesterday Terry,

Coincidentally, I was contacted by a retired principal clarinetist from a major symphony about selling me his instruments, including a Selmer alto clarinet. He had what seemed like alot of emotional attachment to his instruments.

And priced his horns accordingly .... based on retail and insured value.
He wanted me to buy one of his Eb at the same price I could buy a new one for and said I could sell it after some work for the current retail price.

ummm ... right

Emotional attachment can really disrupt pricing. Also people reading about pricing from insured values really throw their values off.
Click to expand...

The problem with retail price is that few things are worth it's brand new retail price once bought. If retail outlets sold instruments worth $2000 for $2000 instead of, say, $3000 they wouldn't last long. This means that even if you bought it for that $3000, it's still only worth $2000 and it's surprising how many people are confused over this. When selling an item, it's simply not the perspective buyer's concern what you've paid for it.

The Problem with insurance value is that Insurance companies have all the insentive in the World to make you believe your item is worth more than it is. By the numbers, if they charge 10% of it's value a year in premium, and their actuaries tell them the average payout plus administrative costs is 5%, then that's 5% of premium they take in profit. They'll then insist that the value of your $1000 horn is $2000 because that's a hundred dollars of profit a year rather than fifty. And yes they'll take a bigger hit on a claim, but remember, the numbers still work in their favor.

I've seen a similar problem from Appraisals: Instrument for sale having been just serviced are also appraised at the sam location at some hillarious amount. I gather the reason for the ridiculous appraisal was that it's really hard to get someone to agree to have $300 of service done on an instrument if you admit to the owner that you've seen them sell online for no more than $100.

Emotional attachment in a sack is worth an empty sack.
 
JfW said:
The problem with retail price is that few things are worth it's brand new retail price once bought. If retail outlets sold instruments worth $2000 for $2000 instead of, say, $3000 they wouldn't last long. This means that even if you bought it for that $3000, it's still only worth $2000 and it's surprising how many people are confused over this. When selling an item, it's simply not the perspective buyer's concern what you've paid for it.
Click to expand...
It really is like saying that a new car is worth 25% -- or even more -- less as soon as you drive it off the lot.

In my opinion, the horns that have the greatest hit are student and intermediate ones. As a case in point, look at the YAS-23. That'll set you back almost $1800 at wwbw. eBay? Used are $500 to $700. Even brand spankin' new ones are $1100. Let's see ... that's about a 35% drop (look at the closed ads).
 
Generally, the percentage of price drop is based upon the seller's profit; i.e., the "worth" of the car - its intrinsic "value" - comes from the price of the nuts and bolts and panels and wires, plus the cost of the labor to put it all together. That loss is equal to the profit and not much more.

With cars, it seems that this concept has finally soaked into the minds of the buying public. Not so for musical instruments, at least not for new ones.

After that profit is gone, the rest of the transactions are what seller wants and what buyer wants, reconciled as the final purchase price. Emotion shouldn't enter into it, but (as you have noted) it often does.

Some of the prices on eBay are way off of the charts. I love Series 9 clarinets, and have bought a little more than my share over the years. But, an A clarinet priced at $3,000 plus isn't worth it to me, or to most players who don't play an A horn each and every day of the year.

But, that is the great thing about auctions - they have a wonderful habit of shaking out all of the posturing and the like, leaving you with the real (and sometimes horrible) truth.

My mother sort of had this experience when her "estate sale" was held a few years back. She had an extensive collection of Hummel figures, accumulated over a long life. While we kept back a few of of these with some sentimental value, the bulk of them had to go.

In a two day sale, thousands of pounds of stuff, ranging from a ski boat and massive amounts of furniture on down to the contents of kitchen drawers was put on sale. The gal who ran the sale did a good job of pricing the majority of the stuff. However, she put the prices on the Hummels at what seemed to us, raised with the "value" of these things, at a very low level.

I brought this up, and she replied that it didn't really matter how much she put on them, they wouldn't sell. And, sure as a gun, she was right. even though prominently on display in the great room, not one of the total went for the price posted. In the end, they were "gifted" to her salvage crew as part of the "pickings" they got for cleaning the remains of the sale from the house.

(Other things, to which we assigned far less value, were priced "high" by the sale lady, and went for ever penny that was asked of folks. She knew her craft, I have to hand that to her.)
 
Last edited:
I really should put together a depreciation list, sometimes.

I believe that the only common make/model saxophone that has increased or kept its value is the Selmer Mark VI. Yes, I can accept that some rare instruments, like the HN White King Saxello or an Evette-Schaeffer contrabass, have also kept or increased in value -- I don't have price charts to adjust for inflation for every instrument -- but if you're talking across the entire range of the model, the Mark VI is probably it.

I find that a bit interesting.

Again, if you know what you're looking for, you can get a really good used horn for a lot less $ than new.
 
I'm just now paying attention to the market again, but it seems Bueschers and Conns have lost significant value. As I've said before, now is a really good time to have money.

Used YAS-23's don't seem to have lost much of anything as their the thing everyone is recommending. However, everyone is asking for MAP brand new!
 
Yah. I mention elsewhere that Buescher pro horns from before the Selmer buyout (1963) are really going for cheap. Conns? Well, a couple years back they were severely overpriced and the market corrected -- and then the Great Recession took another big chunk out of their prices.

Turning around the thing I posted a couple days ago, if you're into an intermediate or student model, you can get a good buy for cheap. Un momento. I will check.

Yah. YAS-52's are averaging around $700. That's pretty good for a really fantastic horn. Makes me wish I had money.
 
yeah, so hopefully I can get a bit of cash free to pick up that TH&C Tenor i've been wanting since shortly after joining SOTW, and maybe an alto too.


pete said:
Yah. YAS-52's are averaging around $700. That's pretty good for a really fantastic horn. Makes me wish I had money.
Click to expand...

That's another horn I specifically want for my personal collection. there's a bit of a story behind that, though maybe I'll get into it later.....
 
(Thinking about the hit I've taken thus far...)

My losses ultimately comes from paying a serviceperson to bring the horn to a condition that would be tolerable for a professional and then selling it! Just thinking about it makes me hurt... especially when I'm NO professional.

My CSGH for example is $22-$2300 acquisition cost, being less than 1 year old 2nd hand b-stock and having a Morrie overhaul. I have NO idea if I can have it sold at this acquisition cost given how few people are as crazy as me in getting a modern top of the line 2nd hand Yamaha...

My Marigaux rang at $900 and + god knows how much after Morrie is done with it. I think it will be no less than $1400.

I think I can get only 80-90% of the procurement costs back in selling the instrument, and that's with buying 2ndhand. Sigh...
 
That's the sad way things go. Collector items are an exception, but generally (be it cars, musical instruments or books) it seems to work like this:
("use value" being the value you attribute to being able to utilize the item)

"use value" > "resale value"
"replacement cost" > "resale value"
"replacement cost" ? "use value" (here's where eBay kicks in - consumer's rent ahoy)

Generally, I have found out that each involved party profit most from an item sold in just "usable condition".
You (as the seller) put only a minimum of work and cost into it before you sell it, and the buyer, depending on his/her level of pickiness will (or won't) bring the item to a repairer anyway and will spend the thusly saved money for having the item customised to their own specs.

Example: You have a clarinet with a "market value" of $500 in its present condition.
You invest $100 to clean it and replace a pad or two to bring it into playable condition. (ie you can play scales up and down with reasonable ease)
You sell the instrument for $800 in "clean and playable condition". Buyer decides it's okay but would have his tech go over it for another $250 to tweak it to his liking. Your profit: $200. Buyer's total cost: $1050.

You bring your honker to the repairer's who does a $600 magic to bring it into top condition. You find out that the market (read: eBay) will pay $1000 for an instrument refurbished by Gonzo The Great. Buyer with beefy hands decides it's fine yet he doesn't like the ring height and has another $100 into it for tweaking it.
Your loss: $100. Buyer's total cost: $1100.

So, I advertise my eBay stuff as "plays fine as it is, but I'd recommend you see your repairer for tweaks" so that the buyer can make up their own calculations. (I won't sell stuff that can't be bought today and be played tomorrow in some 3rd chair community band, unless of course it's clearly marked as "for repairs", "donor instrument" or "broken")

It's different if you're Gonzo The Great himself and sell instruments in a real and virtual shop. But a no-name player in eBay will very likely lose some of the money that was put into an instrument prior to selling. There's no substitute for a personal visit with a repair person of the buyer's choice.
 
Of course, there is the other thing, being asking Gonzo the great to sell the thing for you via consignment or to try to appeal to others about the merit of Gonzo's approval...

Taking my case, despite Morrie's stated that he can be referred to when I post and that he will vouch on what someone would be getting with the case of that aforementioned CSGH... even with anticipating and pricing according to realistic depreciation however, the price still seem to leave the target audience (obviously the professionals) in the cold.

If I were to think in the shoes of Gonzo the Great, when they fashion a one-off horn for the "outrageous" price of $6000, the investment of some 80 man hours typically equate to $75 per hour which is typical for the caliber of the huge ham, and that's with the materials and equipments notwithstanding. That's obviously not how the consumer market will evaluate any said prestige horn...

Even in the case where Gonzo invests his time to pick out a great one, his man-hour also technically is expanded and reflected on the picked item.. we see this too often. Yet it is pretty evident that ebay wouldn't put to account of that easily.
 
eBay is a hunter-gatherer market place, (more often than not) of cheapskates on either side. (I am no exception)
I know many people who couldn't imagine sinking more than say $500 into an eBay purchase. Forum audience is a bit better, but you still won't get anywhere near the "commercial" value (shop window price tag) of your merchandise. Hey, it just is a glorified flea market and everyone's looking for the cheap deal.

You might indeed better off if you sold your instrument in consignment with Morrie or whoever happens to be your trusted repair person.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom