Playing "Resistance" of different makes and models

[jbtsax]

Helen touched on this topic in another thread, and I would enjoy a more thorough discussion of this interesting (to me, at least) subject. I believe it encompasses manufacturing saxophones to different specifications to match the concept of what a saxophone is supposed to sound like at different times in the instrument's short history much like mouthpieces have developed over the years. It also is closely tied to the acoustics of what is happening inside the saxophone. Some of my questions are:

- Is the difference really "resistance" to the air stream as one blows, or is there some other effect that is taking place that we use the term "resistance" to describe.

- Whatever we call it. What acoustical elements are at play that make a saxophone more "easy blowing"?

- What acoustical elements that are present make a saxophone feel more "resistant"?

- Can one take a free blowing saxophone, and make it more "resistant" or vice versa?

- What are the advantages, disadvantages of one type over the other?

 

[Steve]

I have done some interesting testing with a mpc refacer in this regards.

But first, years ago I had bought an old Conn alto. I had noticed that the opening to the neck - mpc side - was increased with a reamer of some type. This led me to track the size at both the mpc side and the horn side opening size.

In playing with many necks on the same horn me and the mpc guy found a correlation between the mpc neck opening and the feel of resistance. The more open, the more free blowing the neck.

Also, at one time I had a customer with a mic attachment on his tenor sax. He still wanted it but the resistance on the horn was horrendous. I would file the mic attachment inside the neck down until the resistance got to the point that was acceptable to him.

In short, if one thinks about it, the neck octave pip (and any other attachments) act like and air dam and creates the 2nd point of resistance (ignoring any type of air leaks). The smaller the air dam, the less the resistance and more free blowing.

In this, we are ignoring the mpc in this equation of making an instrument more freeblowing - larger tip etc. Of course this ignores what I think jbt is asking in regards to the horn itself.

 

[Steve]

on another aspect of this, which Natai had a similar experiment on bass clarinet, I found the diameter of the body octave pip on a tenor saxophone had a tremendous effect on the "resistance", or back pressure of the instrument.

In summary (you can read more at the link at the bottom), my VII tenor had a huge diameter body octave pip. When that opened the back pressure in the instrument dropped like a rock and the reed would slap shut - on certain strengths, openings. As I decreased the pip opening (or conversely used a larger tip mpc or harder reed or all) the back pressure dropoff became more balanced. After some experimentation the back pressure changes was very evident to the player and controlled based on what I changed.

Anyways, the body octave pip can have tremendous effect on the backpressure. I should also mention the neck octave too, and thus the tonehole size while we're at it.

This also translates to something like a large diameter tonehole selmer centered tone clarinet, versus a small bore medium tonehole Leblanc Symphonie (the vintage models), even against an LL.

http://www.clarinetperfection.com/saxaqueaky.htm

 

[jbtsax]

I find it interesting that you are using the term "back pressure" very much like what brass players talk about. I will have to think about that for a while before coming to an opinion or conclusion. My experience has been more related to the the phenomenon that some notes are more "stuffy" than others and require more blowing "energy" to make them speak or project like the surrounding notes. I don't know if this is what you mean by "back pressure" or not.

My two experiences with testing different necks and instruments were similar in that the more free blowing neck and instruments were more appealing to me in the first comparison trials. But as I continued to play the necks/instruments back and forth, I found that once I worked a bit harder with my breath support playing the more resistant ones, I ended up preferring those sound over the easier blowing ones.

The two necks in a blindfold test were the Cannonball regular, and Fat neck. The Fat neck had the greater resistance, but a fatter sound when pushed harder.

On the saxophones, I can't remember the exact models, but there were six professional altos. The free blowing and responsive Yanagisawa was my first choice the first time through the group, but ended up in last place after several trials. The Yamaha and the Selmers were somewhere in the middle. The most resistant, but fullest sounding when I worked harder with the air were the Cannonball Raven, and Cannonball Vintage respectively.

Once I get my artificial embouchure device up and running, I would like use it to play several of these makes and models again using the same air pressure and record the decibel level and harmonics each one produces with the input.

 

[Steve]

JBT - keep in mind I also was a french hornist. On brass instruments, the top repair people go through each solder area to make sure that there is no solder permutations inside. If so, they file it down and make the transition from tube to tube as smooth as possible, and make the instrument as freeblowing as possible. There can be a significant difference to the player when this technique is applied as each solder blob is an air dam and thus creates air resistance in the horn and back pressure to the player. Of course there is as much clamour about lead pipes on brass as there is necks on saxes. And brass mpc design has so many permutations it makes the mind melt. Check your Selmer USA marketing pack on trumpet mpc design and you'll see what i mean (I don't have the latest one)

when i mention back pressure I meant to talk about the pressure in the mouth, or the air pressure that one feels in the mouth as the air rushes into the mouthpiece.

On the one body pip item, when the body octave opened and in it's largest size, there was a tremendous release of that pressure inside the mouth (with larger mpc and harder reed, which prevented it from closing). Thus the term "back pressure" and not necessarily resistance. but hey, it's a definition that each of us can define as we will. It was like one just opened their mouth and all the air rushed out. Versus the resistance example I gave of the neck octave & mic attachment pips in the neck.

The body octave pip experiment made me much more open to feeling the resistance per key on a clarinet from top to bottom. And I became more knowledgeable about why the Buffet R13 is liked by professionals in the term of "balance" for playing. And on saxophones, in relation to the size of toneholes and it's overall "balance".

In regards to the tonal aspects related to venting and balance from note to note, I know what you are mentioning here but you will have to also look at the various bore designs as Yani bores are easier to play than Selmer bore designs, such as on soprano saxes. Someone more in tune to this is Dave Kessler - you may want to give him a call.

In regards to necks. This was testing various necks - Selmer USA, Keilwerths, Selmers, etc all fitted either onto a Keilwerth or Selmer tenor (I can't recall which horn). So no swapping of a horn or mpc which would create too much deviation in testing. But a correlation was made (i was in a different room to listen) that the larger the opening the more "spread" the tone was while listening. To the player the more free blowing everything was with the larger mpc/neck opening. No written notes were taken, it was for our own evaluation, this also was years ago.

 

[pete]

I dunno if it's a good data point, but I find that it's fairly difficult for me to play altissimo on Selmer Mark VI alto and tenor -- and, interestingly, the Yamaha 875 series (which, arguably, is a Mark VI with some tweaks). I've not played zillions of "new" horns, but I can say that, even if I play, say a Yamaha 52 (i.e. "intermediate class and radically different bore than the 875") or my wife's Selmer USA Omega alto (1981; it's a nice blending of S80 and Mark VII), I don't have a problem. Same goes with the S80 bari: no problems.

My problem is "resistance": it's just more difficult to play, like the horn doesn't want me to play that high. Kinda like the "break" notes on a clarinet.