"Practice room" chops

Groovekiller

Groovekiller

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
OK, I'm sticking my neck out here, and I'm entering into a complex discussion, but it's something that professional players need to address.

No matter how much time you spend practicing in a small room, it's entirely different from playing live. In my experience, live perforformance is much, much, louder. Granted, the musical scene here in south Florida is exceptionally loud, and I wish it were not so, but you have to deal with what is there.

In Broadway-style shows, the volume level is better when it's quieter, and it often is in those circumstances. Yet I often find that concert band, big band, and even symphony orchestra volume levels create an entirely different environment from practicing in a studio. I often use mouthpieces and reeds that are unbelieveably loud in a studio for live performance, and not just for use in highly electrified rock bands. Please understand, I'm not endorsing this volume level, I'm simply doing what's necessary to survive.

It's necessary to address the pitch tendencies of wind instruments when playing loud. For reed instruments, when extreme volume levels are encountered, the player "blows himself flat." That means the player can't achieve a good sound at the necessary volume level without playing lower than the pitch of the ensemble. Flute players are the exception because the pitch tendencies of that instrument go in the opposite direction.

I've experienced excellent sax and clarinet players who can't get up to pitch in a live big band because they insist on placing their mouthpiece in the same spot on the cork that they use for practice in the studio. And for that reason, they don't get hired for gigs. It's difficult to capture the environment of a live perforformance when playing alone. Those of us who spend 90% of our playing time on the job have discovered the "magic spot" on the cork that allows us to play up to the volume of the ensemble and still hover around A=440.

My solution to the problem has always been to tune a tad sharp and then play with very loose chops to bring the pitch down - even on clarinet (blasphemy!) It works for me. What do the rest of you do?
 
I ask the sound guy to turn up my volume on the board. :emoji_smile: Seriously, that's what I do now, but then I play in a blues/rock band. Years ago, when I played bari in a big band, I did exactly what you are describing. I had no other choice; that's all I could think of doing. Good to know I was on the right track. :-D

In what seems like the Jurassic Period now, but really it was only when I was in high school ;-), I was always considered a loud player. The other students would complain that they were being drowned out by me. (Not really surprise I play in rock bands, huh?) Looking back at this now, I think I started adjusting my mouthpiece position on my cork 25 years ago. If I look at my very first sax that hangs now on my wall, that I played through high school, it has 2 lines on the cork where the mouthpiece should go.

I should mention, my junior high school band teacher was a professional sax player, and was also my first private instructor. He was American, and had done a stint in one of the high profile Air Force Bands (can't remember which now). He taught me a lot of tricks of the trade. I can't say for sure, but I suspect this one probably came from him.
 
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What a timely post. Suzy, the clarinet player in our big band is leaving, making room for a better lead tenor to me. I'll move into her 2d alto chair. So I was playing Moonlight Serenade on clarinet and having a heck of a time staying in tune on the high notes and at the required volume. Time to go look for a smaller barrel to try your suggestion.
 
I practice in the studio at performance volumes with backing tracks playing at performance volumes.

In performance, the mouthpiece setting is at the mercy of the piano tuner (or absence thereof).

Intonation in an ensemble is as much a function of listening as it is how you position your mouthpiece and blow. If you don't hear that you are out of tune, nothing you do on your own will fix it.

Insisting that your mouthpiece always go on at the same position ignores other variables that effect intonation.
 
Very timely post. Our big band played a gig last night on a boat in a very small foyer area. There wasn't a scrap of fabric or carpet anywhere to absorb sound - it was all wood, metal and glass. The space was so small that we decided to only use microphones for the vocalists. While the ensemble playing was very tight, we were really roaring, and the intonation was dodgy all night long. I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be sitting next to the bass amp, so I had a pretty good reference point. This morning I looked in the mirror and saw two vertical red lines on my lower lip. I was unconciously adjusting by tightening up, instead of the more natural solution of pushing in. Lesson learned.
 
Gandalfe said:
Al, I suspect you missed the point.
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I got the point. I was responding to this comment:

I've experienced excellent sax and clarinet players who can't get up to pitch in a live big band because they insist on placing their mouthpiece in the same spot on the cork that they use for practice in the studio.
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Gandalfe said:
The line on the cork is the starting place; you adjust from there. It's especially helpful for doublers with three or four instruments.
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With mouthpiece du jour syndrome (a la Getz et al) that line don't mean squat. :)

For me the starting point is the tuning note, whether it be from whatever pile of wood, felt, and steel they're calling a piano that day or the concert master's closest guess.
 
Excessive volume and intonation problems are a pretty esoteric issue, I personally think that there are no simple solutions, no cut and dried answer. Me personally, I don't work gigs where volume causes intonation problems. If things are that bad, I'll finish the night, and let someone else deal with the torture and unmusicality in the future. Life's too short to have to deal with bad music.

On the other hand, sometimes the situation takes a day or two to settle down, and volume may turn into a very constructive form of energy. Especially if the band has mainly acoustic instruments. I went through a situation like this back in March. The Odean Pope Saxophone Choir was booked for four days at the Blue Note in NYC. The band consists of eight saxophones in the section, three alto, four tenor, and bari. Plus Pope on solo tenor, and the feature soloist for this gig was James Carter on tenor and soprano. I play lead alto in the band, rhythm section is piano, bass, drums, all acoustic, piano and drums miked, bass amplified into the house. So my note is the only melody note, eveyone else is playing some kind of harmony or counter. The music can be very difficult.

The first night sounded and felt like the explosion of volume festival and thrill circus. The drums were miked, all horns were miked, Pope miked, James miked. I was blowing my brains out. But something told me to just chill, don't complain, see what tomorrow brings. Sure enough, the next night, a different sound guy shows up, it's still loud, but each tune seems to be turning more into energy, channelling the volume into energy, and momentum. Good. The musicians in this band are all very acomplished, so by the third and fourth nights, the players were able to direct sound only partially into the mike, we had found the level, the sound man (the 2nd guy stayed for the rest of the gig, fortunately) had found his level, and it was nothing but energy. James was able to walk away from his mike and solo freely away from the mike, using other parts of the bandstand to reflect his sound. And I could shade and color my notes, actually play dynamics, without having too blow my brains out as much. Pope was actually smiling some.

So if the band is good, good musicians, and the instruments are acoustic but are playing too loud tonight, I'll stuck with it for a while and work with them, try to see what's going to happen, maybe try to offer some constructive criticism. Maybe they'll come down to a nice musical level. If it's an elecronic instrument band, guitars, keyboards, bass guitar, miked drums, loud.....I don't need to be there. I'm out. But nothing in music is totally cut and dried......




Julian
 
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saxhound said:
Very timely post. Our big band played a gig last night on a boat in a very small foyer area. There wasn't a scrap of fabric or carpet anywhere to absorb sound - it was all wood, metal and glass. The space was so small that we decided to only use microphones for the vocalists. While the ensemble playing was very tight, we were really roaring, and the intonation was dodgy all night long. I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be sitting next to the bass amp, so I had a pretty good reference point. This morning I looked in the mirror and saw two vertical red lines on my lower lip. I was unconciously adjusting by tightening up, instead of the more natural solution of pushing in. Lesson learned.
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I had the opposite problem last night. The room was warm and it seemed like it just kept getting warmer as we played. My chops were dust by the end of the 2nd set (thanks in part to using reeds that really had not been broken in yet) but I was pulling my mouthpiece out the whole night.
 
sideC said:
Excessive volume and intonation problems are a pretty esoteric issue, I personally think that there are no simple solutions, no cut and dried answer. Me personally, I don't work gigs where volume causes intonation problems. If things are that bad, I'll finish the night, and let someone else deal with the torture and unmusicality in the future. Life's too short to have to deal with bad music.
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Well said. At this point in my life, I refuse to work with musicians who can not monitor their stage volume. Of course, there are always going to be those rooms that are just acoustically terrible. Fortunately, I've managed to surround myself with musicians who know how to make the best out of a bad sound situation. In most cases, I put my trust into the soundman to do their job and hope that I'm coming through the PA.

I will never sacrifice intonation for volume. My Link mouthpieces can project very well, and if my sound is being buried, something else is wrong. My motto is, if you can't hear me, you're playing too loud. If I'm with a band who doesn't understand this concept, I'll just do what I can do, smile, and collect my paycheck at the end of the night. During 90% of my gigs however, the bands I have worked with have been very accommodating towards horn players. Most of these guys understand that I'm not playing an amplified instrument, and they will do what they can do to keep the stage volume at a reasonable level.

In order to get used to the different sounds that I may hear on a given gig, I try to vary where I practice in my house. Carpeted rooms produce a dry sound and hard floored rooms can produce a lot of echo. I try to get used to every environment, but you cannot possibly prepare yourself for every single type of gigging scenario. There are only things that experience can teach, and there are many things that I am still learning. I'm finding myself becoming more comfortable to even less than ideal sound situations. I suppose that the bottom line is that the show must go on, and sometimes you just gotta rough it out.
 
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