Professional Horns

[sideC]

I'm just returning from a short tour of the western US, playing with the Lionel Hampton Orchestra. Seven saxophonists made the gig, five with the band, and two guest feature players. Ken Peplowski brought his tenor, although he was featured on clarinet, and his horn appeared to be Yamaha. The other six saxophones were Selmer. Three mk6's, including my gold alto, two sba's, including Scott Hamilton's tenor and Eddie Pazant's alto, and the bari player was on a fairly new serie ll.

I've been earning my living with my horn for almost 40 years now, and most of the players I've worked with over the years have played mk6. When I started in business in the early '70s, the 6 was about the only top of the line horn you could buy new. Conn had shifted production from Elkhart to the Texmex area. King had left Superior Ave for parts unknown. Buescher and Martin were missing in action. Yamaha had made two altos, one for Trane and the other for Pharoah Sanders. Other than that, they were still known for motorcycles. Some players were taking a chance on the H Couf. But Selmer pretty much had the party to themselves back in '72.

You had to look at durability back then. Steady employment as a musician meant that you worked six nights a week, four to five hours a night. I remember working the old eight day week in the jazz clubs. That meant you worked Tuesday through Sunday with a matinee show on Saturday and Sunday. Hours were 10-2 Tuesday till Thursday night, 10-3 (or 9-3) on Friday and Saturday, and 8-12 on Sunday night. Many places had blue laws on Sunday, so you got off early.
Your horn had to be well built to hold up under that kind of strain, so the demands on a horn were a lot higher than they are today. And you worked recording sessions during the day if you were lucky.

Regarding the mk6 intonation issue. I bought two mk6 altos and a bari new during their production run. The mk6 you buy today is not necessarily the same horn you bought back then. These horns have been through a lot since 1957, or 1965, or 1973, or whatever. Hours and hours of hard playing on the bandstand. Abuse, damage, many horns were dropped and repaired more than once, relacquers, questionable overhaul and repair work. Many of these horns have odometers that have turned over ten times or more, so we have to take that into account when we evaluate them here in 2010.

So, I'm still seeing lots of Selmers in NYC. I see some of the younger players playing the Taiwan made brands, mostly endorsement deals. Same with the Yamaha brand, they make horns available at reduced prices with free maintenence to some up and coming players. But it's still mainly mk6, sba, and ba in the circles I work in. Just telling you what I see.

Julian

 

[Gandalfe]

Julian, this runs true now-a-days. The best players that I know personally or have recently listened to still have their Selmers. But then there is players like Phil Woods who was playing a Yamaha when I saw him. He had a speil during his master sessions that basically said, "It's not the horn that makes the man."

 

[sideC]

Gandalfe, Phil Woods and Paquito D'Rivera are two of the biggest names who have switched from Selmer to Yamaha. I remember working some gigs with Paquito many years ago and he was bemoaning the fact that the backup alto he was playing on those gigs had no high f# key on it. The horn was a beautiful silver plated mk6. He told me that he was playing it because his regular mk6 was at Andersons, being gold plated.

I also worked with Phil a few times when he was playing his mk6. I remember hanging with him in the dressing room after the gig one night, and he told me the story about how he aquired his mk6.
He said that in 1959, he was in Paris working in the band of the Quincy Jones show called "Free And Easy." He and Budd Johnson decided to go down to Selmer and buy new saxophones. So they were at Selmer indulging in the enormous selection and basically painted themselves into a corner. They had so many new horns at their disposal that they couldn't figure out which ones they liked, and which ones were so so. So Phil said that they heard this trememdous alto playing coming from down the hallway, somebody was playing impossible stuff. So they went down there and they saw Marcel Mule blowing a new mk6 alto. They busted in on him and he said that he was there doing quality control on the new instruments and that yes, he would be glad to pick out a new alto for Phil, and a tenor for Budd.
So Phil said that they came back later and Marcel had their horns ready, hand picked by Marcel Mule! Phill capped off the story by saying,"I paid $75 for it in 1959, so I guess it's worth $125 now!" Raucous laughter then ensued.

In a related story, I remember working the "Harlem Nutcracker" show at Christmastime back in the day. I played the third alto chair, sitting under Jerome Richardson. Jerome was also in the "Free And Easy" 1959 band in Paris. I related Phil's story to Jerome, and he said that he went to the Selmer office the next day and had Marcel pick out a tenor for him. Jerome said that it was the best tenor he'd ever owned. He said that the horn was stolen from him while he was working in Chicago. Seems he put the horn in the case and hid it behind some stuff in the club where he was working. He then went to dinner at a nearby restuarant. When he returned, the case was in it's hiding place but when he opened it, no horn. Jerome told me this story while he was hiding his mk6 alto and soprano under a curtain in the "Harlem Nutcracker" orchestra pit as we were going to dinner that evening. Fortunately, both horns were there when we returned.

Julian

 

[pete]

FWIW, I have attended a lot of concerts/recitals/gigs of $name_brand_players and I've seen their album covers: mmmm. That's a Yamaha. Hey! He was playing a Mark VI in his concert!

I absolutely love BOTH the Yamahas (I've not tried the 82Z, yet: I want it in a bari version) and the Selmer Mark VIs. Durability? I think both are.

My opinion is that people have been told for years that the Mark VI was the best sax ever ("the Buffet R13 is the best clarinet ever") and, as sideC mentions, a lot of recording artists used them in the past -- to an extent because no other makes/models were easily available. In other words, it's a self-perpetuating circle: the VI is the best horn ever, $recording_artist buys a VI, everyone thinks $recording_artist is great so they buy VIs to be like him, they tell people the VI is the best horn ever ....

Just remember that if we were talking 65 or so years ago, we'd be talking about how the Conn Standard (i.e. "Naked Lady") horns were the best horns since sliced Kenny G because so many artists used 'em. Unless you lived outside the US. In France or someplace ....

Remember, it's 2010. 40 years ago is only 1970 and that's post-Beatles. I have to keep reminding myself of that.

Dragging this back on topic, does this mean that a modern sax isn't "professional" unless it approximates the Mark VI, a clarinet isn't professional unless it approximates the Buffet R13, and a flute approximates one of the great old Haynes? I know I asked this before, but the last few posts seem to hint at that without acknowledging it.

 

[clarnibass]

Just a few questions/corrections.

Keilwerth? They have the ST, EX, SX/CX and the SX-R. The ST is their student model made in ROC (Taiwan).

Keilwerth actually has a more basic student model. It used to be called Evette, now changed its name to SKY Concert. I don't know if it is made in Taiwan or China. Seems that it is not available in USA.

Buffet's saxes are now all outsourced to Chinese or Taiwanese companies. Their clarinets are a mess of about a dozen models, but fortunately most are variations on a model (e.g. R13 or R13 Prestige).

Are you absolutely sure Buffet saxophones are all made in China now? I know the 400 models are. What about the Prestire, which according to their website is still made (but not available in USA)?

BTW some of Buffets clarinets are also made in China now.

The Yani 90x series vs. their 99x series strikes me very much as the Yamaha 52 vs. 62: very slight build differences, but no bore differences (as far as I'm aware, at least: feel free to correct me).

I'm not exactly sure but I might try to find that out from Yanagisawa in Musikmesse.

the Buffet R13 is the best clarinet ever

Actually in some countries in Europe (even France where they are made) the RC model seems to be much more popular and the standard, with the R13 almost no existent in comparison.

My definition of a professional player is one who makes a living by playing their instrument. They may have supplementary income from teaching and product endorsements, but the vast majority of their gross income comes from performing. Someone who plays gigs occasionally for money does not fit into this category.

To me there is a problem with this definition. If the term "professional" about a player wouldn't imply anything beyong how they make a living then it would be ok. But it does imply a certain level. The problem is that many players who, for reasons that have absolutely nothing with the level of their playing and their level as a musician, don't make much of a living from actually playing and instead do other things (like teach, etc.). I can think of some of the best players who are mainly teachers and don't play much anymore in concerts but can also think of some players who make a living from playing mostly and are no where near as good. Also, some of the latter, regardless of level (some are also excellent players), play very cheap instruments.

 

[Steve]

In regards to the R13 Europe/US sales a buddy of mine who knew Tolchin who bought Buffet in the 1970s (?) said that they were trying to prevent R13s from being sold in Europe and trans-shipped them to the US. It was also one of the reasons Buffet marketed the BC-20, S-1, Super-Dynaction, Continentale in Europe only.

So the R13s were "entrenched" in the US whereas the RC was entrenched in Europe in which that mind-set still continues for the most part today.

I found that info interesting .....

 

[pete]

Are you absolutely sure Buffet saxophones are all made in China now? I know the 400 models are. What about the Prestire, which according to their website is still made (but not available in USA)?

Pretty sure. Or Taiwanese ("ROC" = "Taiwan").

I wrote a matrix of new saxophone models currently available and their prices. I found ONE website that had ONE S3 Prestige and that's it. It's been "replaced" by the Keilwerth CX90 (after all, Keilwerth used to "make" the Buffet Expression -- an SX90 with a different name on the bell).

Of course, I haven't called Buffet and asked.

 

[pete]

Back on topic, so do the saxophone geeks agree with "It's not professional, unless it's like a Mark VI"? My opinion is that that would be a bad road to travel. Think of it another way, those of you who don't play VIs: if I were to say that if you traded me your top line instrument from wherever/whenever -- and the following were/are the top line professional horns from the respective makers:

* The best Conns ever made were the 12M, 26M, 28M and 30M
* The best Bueschers were the 400 "Top Hat & Cane" and "Big B" Aristocrat
* The best Martin was (arguably) the Magna
* The best King was the Super 20 Silver Sonic (in a specific serial number range)
* The best Buffet was (arguably) the SuperDynaction "Transitional" horns
* The best Dolnets were the M70s
* The best Keilwerths are (arguably) the SX90Rs
* The best Yanagisawa is (arguably) any model based on the 99x
* The best Yamaha is (arguably) the 875 series
* The best SML is the Gold Medal (in a specific serial number range)
* The best Inderbinen is an ... Inderbinen
etc.

... for a Mark VI in the same condition, would you do it? (Sorry; you can't trade a Yamaha 23 for a Mark VI. Why? There are better Yamahas out there.) I've gotta tell you that if I had a brand spankin' new YBS-62, I WOULD trade it for a VI in the same condition. Why? I liked the VI that much more than a YBS-62. However, I don't know if I'd like a Yanagisawa would be better, because I haven't played one. Or an SML or even a S80 Serie III. Hey, an SBA is supposed to be better!

I really don't think you'd have that many takers. (Maybe I'll poll it. I did. It's at http://www.woodwindforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3128.)

Going forward, I could easily come up with a rating system based on how close any particular horn is to a Mark VI, but I just really don't think it's a good idea to say that "Selmer Mark VI is the ONLY pro horn out there and you're not a serious enough player unless you lust after one."

==============

However, note that this topic is in GENERAL discussion for a reason: what about clarinets, flutes, oboes, etc.? Echoing the above paragraph, I think it's a bad idea to say something like, "An R13/RC is the best clarinet and NO other pro horns are professional," or whatever. I'd like to hear more about how to rate whether a horn is "professional quality" or not.

Going back to the automotive world, if you say that the Ferrari F430 is the BEST sports car out there, several hundred thousand Corvette enthusiasts will write you angry letters. And, at some point, you've gotta say something like, "Well, if you're just cruisin', the Corvette is a fine vehicle. However, if you want a better rounded sports car that does everything fairly well, the F430 is a better choice." Or, why isn't my 2006 Mustang convertible mentioned in the same conversation as the F430? It's a nice car. I get lots of appreciative comments. It goes fairly fast. It's fairly comfortable. And the F430 costs about 20x what I paid for the Mustang. But if someone said to me that they'd trade me an F430 in the same condition (and, of course, make up the difference in insurance and licensing costs), I'd take it.

 

[DaveKessler]

This is a rather interesting discussion. The sad truth is that coming to a universal consensus on what REALLY qualifies as "professional" is about as difficult as me trying to grow hair!

There is one true fact that I believe all CAN agree on though and it is this:

There are only professional players. The horn does not make the player but the player makes the horn.

We all know this to be true and really, I have always been against the usage of the term "professional" in the industry (yes I know that I have it on my site, but that is due to the need of the consumer to have it) as I feel that it can very easily serve a purpose of deception. Too often the term is used simply to justify a price.

My own Kessler Custom models for instance, I will NEVER call my Kessler Custom Standard models anything other than a great intermediate level horn.

Even with our Handmade model I will not tell a customer that they are a "professional" sax even though I have had numerous customers take over a Yanagisawa 991 (alto, tenor and soprano) even though they came in intending on buy the Yanagisawa.

To me, the term professional is nothing more than a sad marketing term. If I am forced to use it, then I believe that it has to be reserved for horns that are hand made by skilled artisans in a way or manner that produces a tone unique to themselves. I think that the Big 4 makers' top horns fit this description well enough although there can be plenty of argument that many modern designs are simply based on older designs thus negating the "uniqueness" of the horn's design.

Regardless of all of this though, I simply go back to this thought when advising cusotmers; buy the horn that you feel plays the best for YOU, regardless of what anyone else says about it. In the end, they are not the one playing it and any player will continue to sound like themselves on any horn they play. If it means saving some cash and getting a lower level horn and in turn investing in a better mouthpiece and lessons from a great teacher, then they will be better off.

 

[pete]

Dave, that's about the best post I've ever seen on this subject.

I DO think that modern professional horns all share certain features -- primarily because they're taking older horns as templates and then running with the design -- but there are so many "intermediate quality" instruments out there that have a lot of these features, too.

If you go back in time to before WWII, you didn't have "professional" horns, you just had horns from a manufacturer. Yes -- and using Conn as an example -- you did have stencils and a second line, but you knew what the trade-offs were:
* In Conns case, stencils lacked some features of their top-line horns (rolled tone holes being the most obvious) and could vary significantly in quality.
* Conn's second line, the Pan American, was a wholly different horn than their top-line and (most) stencils and was specifically intended for the student-esque/low budget market.

I kinda mentioned before that if you have a horn that you're lusting after, that's something that you just have to have. However, there's a much larger palette of instruments out there and you shouldn't just disregard a horn because of its age, manufacturer or country of origin. Hey, I thought all Vito saxophones were junk until I found out that Vitos were made by a host of different companies at different times and they varied widely in quality, some being obviously "I can live with this horn for my entire career" professional. I dunno about you, but if I fell in love with a Yanagisawa bari and bought it, I'd be fairly annoyed if someone then told me that a Vito VSP is the same horn at a grand less ....

Still, I really WANT to say that professional horns must have certain features. That'd help me to justify why pro sax A is $1000 and pro sax B is $10,000. Or why a "intermediate pro" flute is $800 and a "super pro" one is $8,000. (Oh. Right. That one was gold plated with a solid gold headjoint ....)

FWIW, if I was to justify to my wife why I wanted horn A over horn B, I'd be talking in terms of playability rather than price. We'd be talking price waaaay earlier, like, "Honey, I want to buy a pro clarinet. What's my budget?"