Quality control of an expensive saxophone...

[clarnibass]

Posted this on another forum but thought why not here too.

What the... is going on with Selmer Paris quality control. OK, I've seen some poor quality control from Selmer Paris before but this is a first. This is a Serie II baritone, bought new about four years ago. I'm not sure how much this costs here but probably around $10,000 and very possibly more.

Several tone holes had severe dents in them! I attached photos of the least worst of the dented ones because it was easier to take a photo. At least for this one the pad still sealed, though see the attachment to see how great that was... and the too small pad with gaps from the key cup edge was a repeating problem on this saxophone too.

I guess if it worked, you could call it a cosmetic problem... but several other tone holes had dents also lowering the edge severely in a few spots, causing leaks, much worse than the one in the attached photo. You might think this happened from the player bumping the instrument. No, this was definitely without a doubt from the factory.

First, the damage was in places hidden under a lot of keys where it would be impossible to reach without causing damage to many more parts. Second, the pads come from the factory with a seat showing. The seat (or lack of it) exactly matched the shape of the damaged tone holes. If a key or tone hole bends, there will be a sign of the old and new seats, but there was only one seat. This means it didn't happen during shipping either or anything like that. So this is how Selmer sent the saxophone to the dealer and this is how the store sold the saxophone to the player. The owner was obviously not aware of any problem. I have no idea whether the dealer noticed the problems or not.

It's rare that a problem annoys me enough that I bother posting about it. In spite of all their problems I actually like Selmer Paris saxophones, both old and new models. I think some of their models are really very good with great intonation and tone. Which is why these problems are even more annoying.

 

[Chris J]

Blimey, Nitai!

Is this exceptional or have you seen similar problems with Selmer saxes? Is this just a "Friday afternoon in the factory" instrument?

It raises the points of manufacturing quality, and quality control inspections - this having failed both.

With other cheap and ultracheap saxes coming on the market from factories that are working hard to improve their quality control, Selmer can not rest on their laurels.

Chris

 

[tictactux]

I foresee a new marketing punch line for CSOs: "Selmer Quality for the a fraction of the price"

 

[clarnibass]

Chris, I wouldn't say this is common. I've seen many problems with Selmer Paris saxophones before but something this serious... I only remember one other Selmer Paris saxophone that was anywhere close. Not this bad though.

From the type and location of the damage (most of which is not in the photos) this must have happened they machined the tone holes level to and before (or possibly during) assembling the saxophone. They have many opportunities to find it, in fact someone must have found it, continued to assemble it normally without correcting the problems or reporting them, etc.

I don't think it's a manufacturing problem at all. I think it's most likely just an accident. I'm sure accidents can happen in all the factories. Maybe someone bumped the bari against something, or dropped something on it, etc. could be anything really. The real serious problem was letting it pass in this condition when it is eventually sold for full price.

I foresee a new marketing punch line for CSOs: "Selmer Quality for the a fraction of the price"

Actually, I don't remember seeing this serious problem on any of the better new generation of Chinese saxophones (the really cheap and bad ones are a different story)

 

[clarnibass]

In the above post this sentence:

...this must have happened they machined the tone holes level...

...should read: ...this must have happened after they machined the tone holes level...

 

[Gandalfe]

This is why I buy from places like Kessler Music and people like QuinnTheEskimo. They won't sell me instruments that have been damaged without disclosing/giving a discount or fixing them first.

 

[pete]

Not to interrupt a perfectly good rant, but you mention the horn is 4 years old. It's possible that another tech or the user did the damage.

FWIW, I do remember seeing posts on SOTW about problem with the finish on some recent Selmer Paris horns. But, again, I don't know if the horn(s) in question just weren't properly cared for.

Finally, I dunno if the warranty covers this -- or how long the warranty is. That might be something to check.

 

[clarnibass]

Not to interrupt a perfectly good rant, but you mention the horn is 4 years old. It's possible that another tech or the user did the damage.

In the first post I explained the evidence that proves why this had to come this way from the factory and impossible to happen by the owner or another repairer (it was also the first time he brought the saxophone for repairs so no other repairer ever touched it).

 

[pete]

In the first post I explained the evidence that proves why this had to come this way from the factory and impossible to happen by the owner or another repairer (it was also the first time he brought the saxophone for repairs so no other repairer ever touched it).

Are you referring to, "First, the damage was in places hidden under a lot of keys where it would be impossible to reach without causing damage to many more parts ...." or "You might think this happened from the player bumping the instrument. No, this was definitely without a doubt from the factory"? That's a bit weak to call "proof." Why? Well, I've mentioned that I'm a computer tech. I no longer question HOW users do some things, I just try to fix them after it's broken .

And my users have done things that are allegedly impossible.

Additionally, the damage you describe should = unplayable instrument. I wouldn't have bought a rather expensive bari, played it once, said it was junk and tossed it into a closet. I am aware that some folks do that and one day I hope to have that kind of money to waste, but I think most normal folks would take the instrument back to where they bought it and demand a fix or refund.

Now, I'm all for piling on Selmer, just because that's always fun, but I'm not seeing how this is "proof" of poor QA at their plant. Maybe I'm just not getting it and you need to explain a bit more.

 

[Chris J]

As I understood it, Nitai was saying that as the pad installed has not been changed, and the seating on the pad matches the tone hole, and there are no witness marks of other seatings on the pad - then the instrument was like that from the factory.

The fact that the pad is too small and the seating is way off centre does not make a good advert for Selmer either.

Another possibility is that the sax was damaged by the retailer or in transit to the retailer, and they had a go at a quick repair.

Chris

 

[clarnibass]

Maybe I'm just not getting it and you need to explain a bit more.

Maybe. I'll try to explain more in case I wasn't clear enough.

Are you referring to... "You might think this happened from the player bumping the instrument. No, this was definitely without a doubt from the factory"? That's a bit weak to call "proof."

Of course this is not proof. This is just an explanation to say it was definitely from the factory, followed by the proof.

Are you referring to, "First, the damage was in places hidden under a lot of keys where it would be impossible to reach without causing damage to many more parts ...."

Yes, this is the first part of the proof. Some of the damage would be just about impossible to do even if the owner took a thin, hard, sharp object and purposely damaged the tone holes. I know he didn't do that. General bumps and dents would never create this type of damage. Completely impossible. Plus it would have to be done in several different areas. Plus there was no damage to the body (e.g. dents) where the tone hole damage was. In addition some of the tone hole had the same damage in opposite sides.

So... if this actually happened after the saxophone was bought, it would have to be something like this: The saxophone falling and bumping on a very strangely shaped object, with sharp thin long edges, to reach exactly to the tone holes, passing through a lot of keyswork, without damaging key cups, hinges or the body. It would also have to hit several objects like this, each with a very specific shape, in different directions, since some tone holes had a pushed in edge on opposite sides. This is unrealistic, in fact it is not possible at all. However, if the body, before assembly, was bumped on something, just for example hitting a tone hole against an angle of a table, this is exactly the damage that would happen.

The second and even more convincing part of the the proof is what you left out of the quotes...

Second, the pads come from the factory with a seat showing. The seat (or lack of it) exactly matched the shape of the damaged tone holes. If a key or tone hole bends, there will be a sign of the old and new seats, but there was only one seat.

What this means is that if the damage was done by the owner, there would be the old mark on the pad from where it was originally seating on the tone hole. Then a new mark showing the new bent tone hole rim. IME these seats never disapear from time after arriving from factory. I actually tested this.

I no longer question HOW users do some things, I just try to fix them after it's broken .

That's fine. When I find a problem I like to try to see if I can realize why something happened and how it was possible or not to happen.

Another possibility is that the sax was damaged by the retailer or in transit to the retailer, and they had a go at a quick repair.

Actually it is not possible that this happened in transit. First there would still be the original seat. Second there wasn't body damage to suggest the tone hole damage. Third there is nothing in transit that could cause body damage that would create this tone hole damage. It would have to be done in one of the ways I explained. Someone doing it on purpose is not a possibility here.

The only possibility (and this is just theoretical since it's definitely not the case either) is that the dealer's repairer disassembled it, caused the damage, ironed the old seats and reassemble again without fixing the damage. Even this might mean the old seats are not completely gone and it is possible to leave signs of the ironing. But regardless, I know for sure this didn't happen.

Additionally, the damage you describe should = unplayable instrument.

Not true. The actual problems the tone hole damage caused were 1. Pads that just sealed, still having enough life in them to accomedate and 2. Pads that leaks. As I'm sure you know, it is entirely possible to play a saxophone with leaks. The result from the leaks the same as any leaking saxophone, harder to respond, especially in soft volume. I've seen people play saxophone with many more serious leaks than this one. It also feels to me that it is easier to compensate for leaks on a baritone than on higher saxophones. The saxophone played ok with the leaks, but played better without them.