Sax Section Pickle

[Gandalfe]

I thought I'd run my latest experiences past this august group of pros. I've kinda dug myself into a rut that I am thinking about a lot and trying to fix. We started a new big band by splitting the existing humongous jazz ensemble in two. We are in reality the B band.

When I worked with the band president and Jazz Program Director to do this I got roped into only filling the five chairs and building a great sub list. But it is rare when we have five saxes show up and the section doesn't give me enough time in all cases to fill the position.

I keep an extra set of all the sax books and bring in practicing pros to sit in with us when I'm given enough notice. I've already reneged on the agreement and have six saxes, replacing me at lead tenor with a better soloist. I'm sharing the lead alto chair with my wife. And when someone doesn't show up, Suzy or I can cover all chairs.

Now for the quandary. The lead tenor is out all month and I'm luving it. But he'll be back in August. He, Suzy, and I are the only ones who can play and own the instruments for any chair. He's a better reader than Suzy or me and the lead alto position needs to be played by an aggressive and sometimes very loud player. That's not Suzy.

Also, I get all the hard solos which is becoming kind of hard on my ego. But I want to do what is best for this section. More dynamics, Suzy is becoming good, but she doesn't have the confidence or sound to sell a solo. And she is loath to schlep two instruments to every practice.

So my options:

1. Continue to eek out a shared lead alto position with Suzy with the anticipation that the pregnant 2d alto will be out for a while, which she Denies. If that happens then Suzy and I could swap lead to get the better player on the right solos.

2. Move the lead tenor into the lead alto position as that would help the band the most, but I'd be back to covering the tenor solos, some of which I don't have down yet.

3. Fire everyone and start over.

Also the bari sax player is too tentative and doesn't normally play out. We had a ringer in last night and I realized how much we need a solid bari sax player.

Ah, the joys of building a sax section with the leftovers.

Thanks for lettin' me vent. By writing this down, I just thought of making Mark the lead alto and I'm thinking that would be the best for the section as a whole; put the strongest player in the most important position.

 

[pete]

Remember: Suzy reads your comments, dude .

I have a couple suggestions/recommendations.

1. You seem to have identified the problems. However, are you the one that's *supposed* to implement the solutions? If you're just supposed to ... *ahem* ... shut your pie hole and play ... and you're now making instrumental staffing decisions, people will get annoyed with you. And with reason: it's not your job.

2. Do the other people WANT to switch instruments? As a bari player, I wouldn't want to play alto, if I could help it. And definitely not soprano.

3. Denying she's pregnant, that she'll be out for awhile or that she's a 2nd alto player?

In a perfect world, you probably want the best player on the most difficult part, or the part that's going to be heard the most -- not necessarily on the solo. While the requisite of "not take that many horns to practice" won't be met, maybe you could have people swap horns/parts. Provided they bring their own mouthpieces and reeds, of course. You seem to have ... more than a few horns.

Another way of looking at it is that if this is a community band and the members aren't taking lessons, you're not really helping them much by saying something like, "You're too tentative on bari. I'm havening you play 5th alto until you get better." Maybe offer to help the person or get the person to someone that teaches cheap lessons. Or get Ed to send the person a better mouthpiece.

There's just not quite enough info to post a final answer. What's the full instrumentation you've got?

 

[Gandalfe]

1. I'm the section leader.

2. All three doublers with the instruments and ability to play them have said they don't mind. If they are like me, I believe them.

3. Denying that she will not need to take a break with a new baby. Now I think you are just being obtuse.

I'm thinking you are right about having the best player on lead alto. That is the key instrument for the sax section and the best player should be there. Four of the six players take lessons every Wednesday at my music studio with a local jazz cat and high school band teacher. Instrumentation is the standard AATTB with one decent clarinet player.

 

[pete]

1. I'm the section leader.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you're the person that has the authority to tell people to play a certain instrument.

In my position as Assistant to the Director, one of my jobs was to play whatever part was not covered -- that would sound halfway decent on a saxophone or clarinet, anyway. It seriously ruffled feathers with some folks when I'd sit down next to a person and start playing, say, 1st clarinet parts. Hey, what gave me the right to decide to play that part? The Director told me to. That made things all OK, then.

I've also been with groups where a section leader told the sections various parts that they should be playing and that got the director mad.

Again, do you have the authority to assign the parts? It is important.

2. All three doublers with the instruments and ability to play them have said they don't mind. If they are like me, I believe them.

A good thing.

I played clarinet, for the first 1/2 of my playing life, in a variety of HS bands that had a zillion clarinet players. And then a zillion sax players. I didn't care about the part or chair that I was playing -- or even instrument, really -- I just wanted to play.

3. Denying that she will not need to take a break with a new baby. Now I think you are just being obtuse.

Moi? Nevar!

You and I are, of course, sufficiently experienced (i.e. we have kids. I want a nap) to know that she's gonna need a break. That should be planned around.

I'm thinking you are right about having the best player on lead alto. That is the key instrument for the sax section and the best player should be there.

That's not to say that any other argument for "best player is the soloist" or whatever is necessarily wrong, tho. I'll continue the thought in a moment.

Four of the six players take lessons every Wednesday at my music studio with a local jazz cat and high school band teacher.

I mentioned I bopped around from part to part and instrument to instrument. That didn't and doesn't mean I was the best *player*, but that I was sufficiently skilled not to sound terrible when even sight-reading during a performance.

I mentioned, in my original post, that I'd put the strongest player on the part that was the most exposed or sounded the weakest -- and you could also read that as, "Put the best player on the part that would sound really, really bad if it got screwed up by a lesser player".

I go back to your comment on the bari player: especially in a group that's doing jazz ensemble-stuff and you ONLY have the instrumentation you've got, you want that "bass" line to be strong, so I'd want a good bari player. However, this sounds like this is the sax section that's part of a larger ensemble. I assume you have a real bass and a couple trombone players. The bari's there for color. So, just have the best player on the most exposed part.

One of the things I did with my instrument bopping was also to sit with weaker players and play their parts. Teaching without calling it teaching. That's also helpful.

It's also good that you have section lessons. That helps. How 'bout 1-on-1, tho? There are some things you just can't learn without 1-on-1 from players on the specific horn you play.

Instrumentation is the standard AATTB with one decent clarinet player.

Can I assume that the clarinet player doubles? Does that player double on sax or does he do something different? Doubling would make a significant difference, too. It's an extra variable that needs to be considered.

 

[Gandalfe]

Actually I had a conversation with the director who is also a sax player. I asked him to trust me to do the right thing with the section. He doesn't tell the bones, rhythm or 'pets who to put on one part. The other two bands have done that, trusted me, and have not had a problem.

The lessons on Wednesday are individual lessons, lasting an hour, covering theory, improv, and sight reading. They are very intense unless the teacher is in a low energy cycle day which happened twice last year. High school kids and administration, I'm guessing, can zap your energy levels unexpectedly.

The WBB is a typical 17-piece big band playing stuff like Basie, the Duke, etc. I'd be hard pressed to name a song we play that you would not recognize. The collection is over 200 songs of which we have selected 40 for the book for us to work on this year.

 

[WoodwindDoubler]

While I have had only very little experience with creating a saxophone section ... I have spent a LOT of time playing in them. Based on the situation you described, here's my opinion.

1. Soloing: Obviously Alto 1 and Tenor 1 typically have more solos than any other chair. You should look at which chair that is in this case. If for example the tenor 1 chair has a heavier soloing and you feel he is the best soloist, keep him on lead tenor.

2. Look at what you need for lead alto. Obviously this chair is very important - This player will carve out how the section treats dynamics and articulations etc. Not only do they need to be a player that is in tune and strong clear sound, consistency of phrasing is also ideal.

3. The bari chair is provides the low end tuning of the section and has a very important rhythmic role. This player needs to have a strong full sound that will drive the music forward.

So, long story short ... put the strongest soloist on the chair with the highest concentration of solos. --- specifically improv blowing, not written and fill it out from there.

Hope this helps.

 

[bpimentel]

If you're really dealing with that wide a spread of ability levels, I'd say put the strongest player on lead, the second strongest on baritone. (Third strongest on tenor 1, to lead the occasional low-saxophone lines?)

Solos are easily passed around to whoever wants/deserves them. Big band playing is about section playing more than solos, anyway.

My two cents...

 

[WoodwindDoubler]

If you're really dealing with that wide a spread of ability levels, I'd say put the strongest player on lead, the second strongest on baritone. (Third strongest on tenor 1, to lead the occasional low-saxophone lines?)

Solos are easily passed around to whoever wants/deserves them. Big band playing is about section playing more than solos, anyway.

My two cents...

Passing around solos is an excellent point. I would have never thought of that. I'll have to put that on the back burner for the future.

 

[Gandalfe]

A typical set for two hours list looks like this for solos:

• 1st Tenor - six or more, the hard ones
• 1st Alto - three or more, one alto feature like Harlem or Misty
• 2d Alto - one well worked out solo, usually written, not reading changes
• 2d Tenor - two written out solos
• Bari - three solos, one feature like 'Honk'

If someone wants more solos we try to accomodate them based on what the gig is bringing in. Free concert, anyone can solo. Paid gig, heavy on our best soloists. Recording, only the best soloists--these recordings live forever and get us more gigs.

So far the players are very happy with this and even challenged to step up to the plate. But as the lead tenor, I miss some of my easy solos, as I had them memorized. And the hard stuff, like Moten Swing, I'm working on transcriptions from the original Basie stuff. It's kicking my butt. I know in a year or so it will seem easy, like the tenor solo in 'In the Mood' which used to kick my butt. But getting there is a lot of work and even more... a lot of time.

In some ways I suspect that it's harder for professionals like Terry and Merlin because there, they have so much talent to pick from. And maybe the egos are just a little bit larger?