Vintage or New Saxophones
- Thread starter Ed
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Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
Now this is a poll with no bottom.
I'd prefer to play a modern pro-level horn. I prefer to look at a vintage horn. Exception possibly being, oh, the pink gold or sterling Yanis and the titanium SX90's.
Where's that choice, Ed?
Wait. I'm an admin. I could add choices. Abuse of power, here we come!
Now this is a poll with no bottom.
I'd prefer to play a modern pro-level horn. I prefer to look at a vintage horn. Exception possibly being, oh, the pink gold or sterling Yanis and the titanium SX90's.
Where's that choice, Ed?
Wait. I'm an admin. I could add choices. Abuse of power, here we come!
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
I must be one of those "dinosaurs" who has a hard time adapting to change.
Now without launching into the "is the Mark VI really a vintage horn" debate...
My first pro horn was a 198XXX Mk VI (circa '72) tenor that I got used in 1981 while in grade 12. It is still my favorite horn. I have tried lots of newer tenors, but I always go back to my VI. I have also played a lot of other VIs, many of them the 5-digit horns that people rave about, but mine seems to win out everytime. I understand that to some degree it is an issue of familiarity, but mine also happens to be one of those killer VIs out there.
Over the years I have gotten more and more vintage horns. (My oldest was made in 1922.) As much as the ergonomics leave a lot to be desired, I really prefer the sound they produce compared to their contemporaries. For me, there is a complexity in the sound of vintage horns that is lacking in more modern versions. I realize that this is rather subjective, and that the general audience wouldn't pick up the tonal differences between a Mark VI and a Bundy, but for the work I do, the horns I have seem to fit the bill really well.
I got my first new horn a few years ago when I bought a B&S Medusa bari. As much as I like the sound, I find it to be a totally different animal to anything else that I own. I like it, but to me, the sound of the vintage horns wins out everytime.
I feel a little :geezer1: at the moment.
It seems like I should be saying....Well when I was your age, I had to walk through 5 feet of snow for 2 miles to get to school... :geezer2:
I must be one of those "dinosaurs" who has a hard time adapting to change.
Now without launching into the "is the Mark VI really a vintage horn" debate...
My first pro horn was a 198XXX Mk VI (circa '72) tenor that I got used in 1981 while in grade 12. It is still my favorite horn. I have tried lots of newer tenors, but I always go back to my VI. I have also played a lot of other VIs, many of them the 5-digit horns that people rave about, but mine seems to win out everytime. I understand that to some degree it is an issue of familiarity, but mine also happens to be one of those killer VIs out there.
Over the years I have gotten more and more vintage horns. (My oldest was made in 1922.) As much as the ergonomics leave a lot to be desired, I really prefer the sound they produce compared to their contemporaries. For me, there is a complexity in the sound of vintage horns that is lacking in more modern versions. I realize that this is rather subjective, and that the general audience wouldn't pick up the tonal differences between a Mark VI and a Bundy, but for the work I do, the horns I have seem to fit the bill really well.
I got my first new horn a few years ago when I bought a B&S Medusa bari. As much as I like the sound, I find it to be a totally different animal to anything else that I own. I like it, but to me, the sound of the vintage horns wins out everytime.
I feel a little :geezer1: at the moment.
It seems like I should be saying....Well when I was your age, I had to walk through 5 feet of snow for 2 miles to get to school... :geezer2:
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
As far as vintage horns and sound, I can say that I've heard that if you take the bell off a vintage pro horn -- say, a 1940 Conn 10M -- and tap it with a rubber mallet, it does make a bell sound.
Do the same thing with a Yamaha, and it goes *clunk*.
However, I read this someplace on the Internet, so YMMV.
As far as vintage horns and sound, I can say that I've heard that if you take the bell off a vintage pro horn -- say, a 1940 Conn 10M -- and tap it with a rubber mallet, it does make a bell sound.
Do the same thing with a Yamaha, and it goes *clunk*.
However, I read this someplace on the Internet, so YMMV.
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
Sorry guys, the killer new horns of the 21st Century make vintage horns more of a curiousity than anything else. Sure, a killer player can make them sound swell. But they can also do so on the modern, top-o-the-line instruments too. So is this about money or quality? What you're used to or what really sounds the best?
I had a bunch of fellers here this week for lunch and a quartet practice who had never played a Ref 54, Ref 36, Series 67, or Eppelsheim instruments. You know your average musicians a few Berkeley grads and a feller who could play most songs with very little fingerings, read an overtone genius. Every single one was blown away by these new horns. Granted, they are tweaked out with matching mouthpieces. But even though they'd have to rework their voicings, they were very impressed. Will they buy one of these new horns; probably not. Would they like to; yes. But family, house, and such will come first. I'm past that so I'm enjoying my new hobby.
Oh, and I have some very nice vintage horns that I'm not about to sell like Couf Superba I alto and tenor saxes, a Selmer Paris silver clarinet with a tunable barrel, Buffet R-13 Festival, and a Buescher Tru-tone (albert) silver clarinet to name but a few. Fun instruments all, but when it comes to a gig, I bring my a game, or as much as I can muster. And that means bringing my state-of-the-art instruments.
Sorry guys, the killer new horns of the 21st Century make vintage horns more of a curiousity than anything else. Sure, a killer player can make them sound swell. But they can also do so on the modern, top-o-the-line instruments too. So is this about money or quality? What you're used to or what really sounds the best?
I had a bunch of fellers here this week for lunch and a quartet practice who had never played a Ref 54, Ref 36, Series 67, or Eppelsheim instruments. You know your average musicians a few Berkeley grads and a feller who could play most songs with very little fingerings, read an overtone genius. Every single one was blown away by these new horns. Granted, they are tweaked out with matching mouthpieces. But even though they'd have to rework their voicings, they were very impressed. Will they buy one of these new horns; probably not. Would they like to; yes. But family, house, and such will come first. I'm past that so I'm enjoying my new hobby.
Oh, and I have some very nice vintage horns that I'm not about to sell like Couf Superba I alto and tenor saxes, a Selmer Paris silver clarinet with a tunable barrel, Buffet R-13 Festival, and a Buescher Tru-tone (albert) silver clarinet to name but a few. Fun instruments all, but when it comes to a gig, I bring my a game, or as much as I can muster. And that means bringing my state-of-the-art instruments.
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
Oh Jim, you and your new-fangled ideas :geezer1: ... Next thing you know, you'll be getting one of those wireless phones...Cell phones I think they're called.
I've played a Reference 54 that one of my students had. It was nice...But would I trade mine? Nope...perhaps I just don't adapt to change well. I, like the dinosaours or dodo bird, am destined to die out due to my adaptation inability.
I guess I must face facts...when the come, they will not be interested in my technology!
Oh and Pete...Are you mocking me?...Because I seriously believe that the newer lighter weight Yamaha bell will definately clink rather than chime. I'm sure that all those WWII artillary shells in the Selmers made a huge difference in the sound....
Oh Jim, you and your new-fangled ideas :geezer1: ... Next thing you know, you'll be getting one of those wireless phones...Cell phones I think they're called.
I've played a Reference 54 that one of my students had. It was nice...But would I trade mine? Nope...perhaps I just don't adapt to change well. I, like the dinosaours or dodo bird, am destined to die out due to my adaptation inability.
I guess I must face facts...when the
come, they will not be interested in my technology! Oh and Pete...Are you mocking me?...Because I seriously believe that the newer lighter weight Yamaha bell will definately clink rather than chime. I'm sure that all those WWII artillary shells in the Selmers made a huge difference in the sound....
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
Interestingly enough, I was having this discussion yesterday with a friend of mine who is a former Motown player. He just bought a new Cannonball Stone series horn a while back. He kept his Mark VII, and still goes back to it regularly. But we were discussing that where it took us years to get "that sound", the newer horns are definately easier to master the control of. Much less resistance, especially in the lower range.
He played his Cannonball for me, and while I liked the sound, it just doesn't seem as rich and full as when he plays his Mark VII.
Gandalfe said:Sure, a killer player can make them sound swell. But they can also do so on the modern, top-o-the-line instruments too.
Interestingly enough, I was having this discussion yesterday with a friend of mine who is a former Motown player. He just bought a new Cannonball Stone series horn a while back. He kept his Mark VII, and still goes back to it regularly. But we were discussing that where it took us years to get "that sound", the newer horns are definately easier to master the control of. Much less resistance, especially in the lower range.
He played his Cannonball for me, and while I liked the sound, it just doesn't seem as rich and full as when he plays his Mark VII.
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
I also think the only way that an artillery shell makes a difference in your horn's tone is if it's fired at the saxophone in question.
I don't necessarily think weight has anything to do with tone, but others do disagree with me on that. Particularly flute players.
No, the only folks I mock here are Ed, Jim and Steve.Helen said:Oh and Pete...Are you mocking me?...Because I seriously believe that the newer lighter weight Yamaha bell will definately clink rather than chime. I'm sure that all those WWII artillary shells in the Selmers made a huge difference in the sound....
I also think the only way that an artillery shell makes a difference in your horn's tone is if it's fired at the saxophone in question
.I don't necessarily think weight has anything to do with tone, but others do disagree with me on that. Particularly flute players.
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
I think the weight (and height) of the player has nothing to do with the way the horn will sound
though if you compare a Couf Superba 1 to a 1975 Selmer mk VI you will notice that the thickness of the brass is much different - at least in my comparison when I had both of them a couple of years ago. how much of a difference does it make ? who knows .. there's so much more to it such as bore, neck design, neck opening, mpc and player.
I also owned CB BBGS at one time. just not a rich and full as my mk VII either
But I prefer vintage and modern tenor. If i had my free $$ choice I'd own a nice late model SBA and a hmm .. Ref 36 with my VII factory gold plated neck ... or my VII with Ref36 keywork !!
pete said:
I think the weight (and height) of the player has nothing to do with the way the horn will sound
though if you compare a Couf Superba 1 to a 1975 Selmer mk VI you will notice that the thickness of the brass is much different - at least in my comparison when I had both of them a couple of years ago. how much of a difference does it make ? who knows .. there's so much more to it such as bore, neck design, neck opening, mpc and player.
I also owned CB BBGS at one time. just not a rich and full as my mk VII either
But I prefer vintage and modern tenor. If i had my free $$ choice I'd own a nice late model SBA and a hmm .. Ref 36 with my VII factory gold plated neck ... or my VII with Ref36 keywork !!
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
Seriously, some flute players think that the overall weight of the instrument can affect the tone -- and there may be some evidence to support that conclusion. Hopefully sax players will never get that idea into their heads because I'll have to combat another argument in the "finish has no impact on tone" debate.
Wait. Ooops.
Dunno about that, Steve. You've gotta have a good diaphragm and that implies that you have to be in pretty good shape. However, a friend of mine was a pretty decent clarinet player and weighed over 350. 6' 1".SteveSklar said:pete said:
I think the weight (and height) of the player has nothing to do with the way the horn will sound
Seriously, some flute players think that the overall weight of the instrument can affect the tone -- and there may be some evidence to support that conclusion. Hopefully sax players will never get that idea into their heads because I'll have to combat another argument in the "finish has no impact on tone" debate.
Wait. Ooops.
Re: Poll: Vintage or New Saxophones
If it has good intonation, projects well, and it sounds good in all styles of music, I'll play it regardless of age. I have to admit that I do admire some of the old manufacturing techniques and artwork. The Art Deco styled engravings on the old Martins and Conns is very cool. Modern horns look more "stamped out", but they have that "refined" feel from many years of trial and error in design.
If it has good intonation, projects well, and it sounds good in all styles of music, I'll play it regardless of age. I have to admit that I do admire some of the old manufacturing techniques and artwork. The Art Deco styled engravings on the old Martins and Conns is very cool. Modern horns look more "stamped out", but they have that "refined" feel from many years of trial and error in design.
Aside from a good Mk VI which I wouldn't consider a vintage horn, I tend to lean toward modern horns. Better ergonomics, intonation, etc.
I voted for vintage too. But I do like modern horns, they just don't have the allure that grabs me. Price is part of it, but I could sell my 10M and have enough coin to buy a decent used modern horn, so price isn't the real issue.
Klunky keywork, and intonation issues are problems that are more of a minor nuissance to me. Nothing that I feel gets in the way.
I do have to admit that lately, I've been itching to buy a newer Taiwan horn and give it a whirl. Who knows, you may see my 10M on the market.
Klunky keywork, and intonation issues are problems that are more of a minor nuissance to me. Nothing that I feel gets in the way.
I do have to admit that lately, I've been itching to buy a newer Taiwan horn and give it a whirl. Who knows, you may see my 10M on the market.
I play modern on tenor and soprano (Yani 901 models with a bronze neck on the tenor and curvy soprano) but my favorite of the bunch is my 1931 Conn Tranny alto. :-D
I voted for all of 'em.
The horn that I play right now is a Selmer reference alto, I bought it new in '03. This horn beat out my gold plated 58,xxx mk6 alto as my everyday driver. And I thought that the old gold mk6 would be my last horn, it played so well. But the reference does everything better. I never thought that I would find a new horn that could match the vintage mk6 I was playing, but I'm happy with the reference.
I guess that some people don't consider a mk6 vintage, but I do. My tenor is from '62 or '63, and my bari I bought new in '71. My third alto is truly vintage, a near mint condition original lacquer Selmer balanced action from 1936. The BA is harder to deal with on a gig, the action requires more work, as does the intonation control deal. It's beautiful to look at, and the workmanship is exquisite, but I have a harder time keeping up with traffic with the old geezer. But the sound of the BA is a beautiful, sweet, singing tone that no modern horn possesses. So I have to say that I appreciate the old and the new.
The horn that I play right now is a Selmer reference alto, I bought it new in '03. This horn beat out my gold plated 58,xxx mk6 alto as my everyday driver. And I thought that the old gold mk6 would be my last horn, it played so well. But the reference does everything better. I never thought that I would find a new horn that could match the vintage mk6 I was playing, but I'm happy with the reference.
I guess that some people don't consider a mk6 vintage, but I do. My tenor is from '62 or '63, and my bari I bought new in '71. My third alto is truly vintage, a near mint condition original lacquer Selmer balanced action from 1936. The BA is harder to deal with on a gig, the action requires more work, as does the intonation control deal. It's beautiful to look at, and the workmanship is exquisite, but I have a harder time keeping up with traffic with the old geezer. But the sound of the BA is a beautiful, sweet, singing tone that no modern horn possesses. So I have to say that I appreciate the old and the new.
Allow me to look at the discussion in a different way.
* Most people say that the *best* vintage saxophone -- alto and tenor, at least -- is a Selmer Mark VI with a 5-digit serial number.
* Most people say that the *best* modern saxophone -- alto and tenor, at least -- is the Inderbinen (it's certainly the most expensive).
If you HAD to buy one of the above, both in PERFECT shape and for the SAME price, which would you buy?
While I tend to think the Inderbinen is probably not the best horn out there -- I haven't tried many new horns and I really think that I'd probably love the Yamaha 82Z or 875EX -- I think I'd get one of those over the Selmer.
It's a bit of, "Do you think that there is NO modern horn better than your favorite vintage horn?" I think that there are definitely better modern horns than the best vintage horns I've played.
However, from an aesthetic standpoint, you're not going to convince me that a gold plated New Wonder Virtuoso Deluxe Conn New Wonder Eb sopranino is less of a conversation piece than a new Orsi curved 'nino. It's just not the same class -- even tho the Orsi might be a better player.
* Most people say that the *best* vintage saxophone -- alto and tenor, at least -- is a Selmer Mark VI with a 5-digit serial number.
* Most people say that the *best* modern saxophone -- alto and tenor, at least -- is the Inderbinen (it's certainly the most expensive).
If you HAD to buy one of the above, both in PERFECT shape and for the SAME price, which would you buy?
While I tend to think the Inderbinen is probably not the best horn out there -- I haven't tried many new horns and I really think that I'd probably love the Yamaha 82Z or 875EX -- I think I'd get one of those over the Selmer.
It's a bit of, "Do you think that there is NO modern horn better than your favorite vintage horn?" I think that there are definitely better modern horns than the best vintage horns I've played.
However, from an aesthetic standpoint, you're not going to convince me that a gold plated New Wonder Virtuoso Deluxe Conn New Wonder Eb sopranino is less of a conversation piece than a new Orsi curved 'nino. It's just not the same class -- even tho the Orsi might be a better player
.