Where does "altissimo" really start?

jbtsax

jbtsax

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
I have found references that call the auxiliary high F on the saxophone an altissimo note. Other references indicate that altissimo begins at high F# when there is no high F# key and at high G when a high F# key is present.

Also on the clarinet, is high C# considered the first altissimo note because that is where the cross fingered notes begin?

Does anyone know the correct nomenclature for these notes and fingerings, or what the most common practice has been? Thanks.


John
 
Hi John.

If E3 and F3 are played using the front F Key, then yes, both are considered altissimo notes on the sax. (Or so I was taught by both my private instructors and my profs in the '80s.)

Anyone here have more recent experience? Perhaps theories have changed? Bret are you around? What is the current thinking now?
 
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For me, it depends on the day. Today, altissimo started at around middle D.:-D
 
I feel that on the saxophone, altissimo does start with the high G on modern professional horns, and high F# on the older models which ascend to high F.

Back in the early '70s, I remember buying a new mk6 alto that had the high F# key, pretty rare back in those days. The salesman, an old NYC pro player, told me that I should save the extra money that I was spending on the option and buy another horn, one without the more expensive key. His reasoning was that back when selmer first started putting the high F# on altos and tenors, the players didn't know how to make the simple side or front fingerings to make the note just a half step above the "normal" range of the horn. He figured that since we now knew the alternate fingerings for high F#, save the $$$ and just use those fingerings. But his statement serves to illustrate how mysterious the first altissimo note was back in the old days.

As far as the front alternate high E and F fingerings are concerned, I personally see these as alternate fingerings, not altissimo notes.


Julian
 
My front E sure feels like an altissimo note--i.e it wants me to voice it rather than, like the palm high E, just push the right keys. Same with front F, although that one's more automatic.

Rory
 
Altissimo just refers to the name of the register: chalumeau, clarion and altissimo on clarinet/standard and altissimo on saxophone. The distinction between these registers is where one harmonic series ends and the next begins. So, technically speaking, altissimo would start on the first note that you access using the 3rd series of harmonics, wouldn't it?
 
sideC said:
I feel that on the saxophone, altissimo does start with the high G on modern professional horns, and high F# on the older models which ascend to high F.
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This defines altissimo as above the range of the instrument, which intuitively seem like the most natural definition to me as a pitiful amateur. Gandalfe told me, pretty much in agreement with my teacher, to concern myself with other things than playing above the range of the instrument until being more accomplished. Pretty hard when you mainly play tenor and love King Curtis. Some notes pop out but without the high G, the whole thing doesn't really matter, does it? Altissimo = notes I cannot play, but should be able to play. How is that for a definition.
 
steen said:
This defines altissimo as above the range of the instrument, which intuitively seem like the most natural definition to me as a pitiful amateur. Gandalfe told me, pretty much in agreement with my teacher, to concern myself with other things than playing above the range of the instrument until being more accomplished. Pretty hard when you mainly play tenor and love King Curtis. Some notes pop out but without the high G, the whole thing doesn't really matter, does it? Altissimo = notes I cannot play, but should be able to play. How is that for a definition.
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Steen, listen to Gandalfe and your teacher. Learn the basic fundamentals of your horn, get a good sound, and aquire a good all around musicality. The fundamentals will lead you to the more advanced concepts, but only after those basic fundamentals are throughly mastered. Don't let high notes become a distraction.


Julian
 
sideC said:
Learn the basic fundamentals of your horn, get a good sound, and aquire a good all around musicality. The fundamentals will lead you to the more advanced concepts, but only after those basic fundamentals are throughly mastered. Don't let high notes become a distraction. [emphasis added by me]
Julian
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Very well said Julian! You're a wise man. I'm sure as teachers we've all had students that tell us that they want to play "like the SNL guy" during the first year of picking up their horn. Hell, I still want to be able to play like Lenny... So does every other pro sax player I work with. (I traditionally play in rock, blues, and R&B bands, so YMMV. Stratospheric altissimo climbing is not a big seller in the jazz world or classical world as a rule. )
 
Many years ago, as an arrogant young buck, I set a goal to master altissimo over summer vacation. Well, aside from annoying the heck out of my parents and dog, I really didn't accomplish much. I could play a really thin sounding D, Eb, E and F, but nothing below that down to traditional high F and the occasional squawky F#. Flash forward 30+ years and I decided to get really serious about my tone. Lots of long tones & harmonics, and a lot of work on the mouthpiece exercise, learning to hit the G consistently (on tenor), and developing an octave or more of range on the mp. Once again, I managed to annoy the heck out of my dogs!

Lo and behold, one day the altissimo was just there - from F# up an octave, with the possibility to hit G, G# and A above that. All that work shaping the airflow (and developing better intonation) really paid off. I'm by no means an expert, but at least I have all the notes. Now it is a matter of playing scales, chords and licks up there, and learning to judiciously incorporate some of that in my playing. You will notice that I said judiciously. In a big band setting, that means almost never. In a rock setting - well I do like King Curtis and Junior Walker, but more often it is just a run up to a tasty top note at the end of a solo.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. My understanding of acoustics agrees with what Helen wrote that when the F and E are played with the auxiliary high (front) F key they are what are called crossfingerings and as such are acoustically the same as the other altissimo notes that are basically higher harmonics made possible by using unorthodox fingerings.

When the high E and F are played with the palm key fingerings acoustically speaking, they are the same as any other notes in the conventional range of the saxophone which are produced by opening the next adjacent tonehole to go higher.

The reason for my question is that I have heard the term altissimo used to describe just the notes above high F (or F# if there is an F# key) and also to include the front fingered high E and F and I wanted to see if there might be one definition that is more common than the other.

John
 
jbtsax said:
Thanks everyone for your replies. My understanding of acoustics agrees with what Helen wrote that when the F and E are played with the auxiliary high (front) F key they are what are called crossfingerings and as such are acoustically the same as the other altissimo notes that are basically higher harmonics made possible by using unorthodox fingerings.

When the high E and F are played with the palm key fingerings acoustically speaking, they are the same as any other notes in the conventional range of the saxophone which are produced by opening the next adjacent tonehole to go higher.

The reason for my question is that I have heard the term altissimo used to describe just the notes above high F (or F# if there is an F# key) and also to include the front fingered high E and F and I wanted to see if there might be one definition that is more common than the other.

John
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Is playing F the front F just playing an overtone of A while using the plam key tonehole as a vent like the octave pips?
 
Yamahaaltoplayer said:
Is playing F the front F just playing an overtone of A while using the plam key tonehole as a vent like the octave pips?
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That is the way Rousseau describes it in his book "Saxophone High Tones". However, I am still puzzled somewhat as to how the F3 can be a harmonic (overtone) of A unless it is a very sharp 5th (E natural).


John
 
Also G to E would be a crazy sharp fifth. And F# to Eb would be too. What about the fingering for the first altiss. B (and up a few)(Ok, one of the many fingerings). Same as palm D. Another sixth. Huh?:confused:
 
clarnibass said:
Also the Eb/Bb fingering on clarinet which gives a great altisimo F# eventhough it was supposed to be a G.
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So is C#3 considered the first altissimo note on the clarinet? Wouldn't that be the 5th overtone of low A?


John
 
sideC said:
Steen, listen to Gandalfe and your teacher. Learn the basic fundamentals of your horn, get a good sound, and aquire a good all around musicality. The fundamentals will lead you to the more advanced concepts, but only after those basic fundamentals are throughly mastered. Don't let high notes become a distraction.


Julian
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Yes, Boss. Sadly, because of an excessive work load, I haven't had much chance to play lately, but I have come to terms with just spending a few minutes at every practice session trying to hit altissimo notes. If (or rather when) the high G doesn't come out, I just move on. It is awfully tempting though when you are put together like I am with a good ear and a career that precludes a high level of technical skills required for straight ahead jazz. I will have a much easier time fitting in a band that plays some blues, R&B, funk etc, where you can get away with less technique as long as you have good timing etc. In this setting, altissimo notes add something, which is really the only reason why I would like to pick up the skills. It isn't some sort of macho thing.

Oh, and thanks for bothering to respond to my post, Julian. That really is great about WooF and a credit to all the very experienced musicians here that you guys bother to respond to post such as mine.

Thanks,
Steen
 
Helen said:
Bret are you around?
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Guess I'm late to the party, but I would second Jzer21's opinion that it's altissimo if it's in the 3rd harmonic series (counting fundamental as the first). So front E/F/F# are altissimo, but palm E/F/F# aren't. Same goes for clarinet, but of course clarinet only has odd-numbered harmonics, so the instrument's third harmonic is really sort of the fifth harmonic, and C# is the first note of the altissimo.

I do think, too, that the Rousseau book sort of glosses over some things like F being a "harmonic" of A. If you finger the A and overblow it, you should get an E; but of course opening the front F key makes an overly large register vent, enough to raise the pitch to F.

Bret
 
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