Why Yamaha for Students?

[Ed]

I see the point Pete is trying to make. A student Yamaha is a safe choice. It feels like their higher line stuff and you can get a perfectly fine tone out of it given some level of talent.

When I started to play I used a Bundy II. The intonation is pretty good since it was based on the design of the Buescher Aristocrat (which has outstanding intonation). The ergos are not as nice as a Mark VI but it does have table keys that look like a Selmer. The mechanism is totally different so it has what could only be described as a spongy feel to it. I played it from 5th grade on. When I was in my early 30's I finally upgraded to a better horn. It now sits under my guest bed but gets pulled out once in a while and I can say that I sound better on it than I remember sounding when I was much younger. :-D

I think the key to a good student horn is that it is built like a tank and that it plays well in tune. In some ways the quality of a student horn matters more than a pro horn. By that I mean that you want a horn that stays in adjustment really well because little Johnny or Joan is going to beat the crap out of it. It's only going to see a tech when something is really wrong with it. Most of the time parents have no clue about the instrument their child is playing. So built like a tank is a big plus in my book.

For sentimental reasons I would still choose a Bundy II over a Yamaha 23.

 

[clarnibass]

Based on the comparison pics that I've seen on SOTW, Barones seem to be P. Mauriat copies and/or made at the same place -- and Barone mentions on his website in big type that the horn is Taiwanese.

I don't follow the Barone advertisement on SOTW that much, but I specifically remember him saying that (at least he thought) his instruments used to be made in the same place Mauriat is made. Then after some time he changed to a different factory, and that they are now definitely not made in the same place as Mauriat. Keys and parts can look the same many times because (AFAIK) there are several "key systems" in Taiwan and the parts a lot of times are made by a certain company that supplies that type of part to many assembling places (e.g. a key guard). So even saxophones with a different body (which would sound different) could have pretty much identical keys, etc.

Again, my point wasn't necessarily that you could order parts or hunt down the dealer for a different horn, it's "immediate availability". Like, "I've got a concert tonight and the octave key broke". With a YAS-23, you probably have the part lying around. You don't have to wait 6 weeks to order.

Maybe this depends on area. Maybe your repairer happened to find that there are tons of Yamaha 23s with broken octave keys so it's worth stocking that. For example, I have never needed to replace that part. I've repaired octave keys on several models though. If I stocked just some parts for Yamaha 23 model, it's likely that I'll never have to use them.

So if I needed to stock parts to have any common part available, I would need to charge an absurd amount for those parts (for all the dead stock). Either that or raising all my prices, which to me would feel unfair to 99.9% of the customers who don't need the parts, and shouldn't finance those rare cases for those few other customers who do need the parts. Repairing or making almost all parts allows a reasonable cost to customers and in an emergency, it's usually almost as fast as replacing to a new part that is in stock (or could be even faster, in case the new part needs some fitting).

If a repairer (or store with a repairer) can afford a big stock of many different parts, then people in that area must severely break instruments a lot, which doesn't happen here. Still, someone is paying for that stock, and there's a chance it's people who don't need the parts.

Additionally, try to stay somewhat on topic. Remember, this thread is about STUDENT horns. It's great that, say, a Reference 36 is going to retain a lot of value 50 years from now, but how does that compare with a LaVie?

LaVie is either from China or Taiwan (I don't remember). It has a higher price, I'm guessing because it's from Conn-Selmer, as opposed to a store brand name or private seller with a brand (i.e. they have a famous name.... or two names actually).

A better comparison is a good but cheap Chinese saxophone. Let's say it cost $400. let's start with 5 years instead of 50. If you sell the the Ref it would probably be at least $400 less than what you bought it for, probably more. So you could throw the Chinese sax in the trash and still lose less than selling the Ref

That's only about the price and loss. You need to accept playing on the Chinese saxophone all that time instead of the Reference.....

I will accept that over you repair-techs' careers, you may have seen a horn in need of a part - but I'm thinking not enough to corroborate the general feeling here that Taiwanese/Chinese saxophones need a lot of part-replacement. Oh, I could be wrong but I'd like to read the details

IME this is correct. Not just Taiwanese and Chinse saxophones - all saxophones.

 

[Al Stevens]

Sounds like you're gonna get a title, soon, Al. "Pete was right!" is so much better than "Woodwind Member" .

In which case I'd have to change my signature to "...once."

 

[pete]

In which case I'd have to change my signature to "...once."

I've gotta start someplace.

 

[pete]

I will accept that over you repair-techs' careers, you may have seen a horn in need of a part - but I'm thinking not enough to corroborate the general feeling here that Taiwanese/Chinese saxophones need a lot of part-replacement. Oh, I could be wrong but I'd like to read the details

IME this is correct. Not just Taiwanese and Chinse saxophones - all saxophones.

That's really talking about two different things.

First, my point was -- and still is -- IF you needed a part for your horn and needed it immediately, your local repair shop probably has that part in stock for a YAS-23 (or will have a couple YAS-23's lying around that he could remove the part from). This is not a comment on instrument QUALITY in any way. It's just to say that a random repair shop probably has YAS-23 parts rather than Barone (or whatever) right there.

There was a question about what parts would need replacing. I've seen the keyguard that breaks off. I've owned horns where keywork has snapped off. I've played several school instruments that had other broken parts and/or missing parts, including posts and rod screws. I can also see a kid losing or destroying a neck. Heck, my wife's Selmer Omega is still missing that G/G# bridge piece.

Second, I cannot recommend to anyone that they get a Taiwanese, Chinese, or Vietnamese-made saxophone -- at this moment. The reason why is because I have not yet seen someone come out and say something like, "This Chinese-made horn is as quality an instrument as a Yamaha! Their quality is consistent, too -- one bad one out of 50 I've tried!" I HAVE seen posts in the form of, "Their quality is improving!" or "They're making great gains!" That's like saying you came in second place ... in a race between two people.

However, I don't necessarily think that they need more parts replacement than any other horns. I have heard of some needing more adjustment or that they go out of adjustment easily, but I don't remember if that was supposed to be a blanket statement about ALL Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese horns or just for a specific company. Even if it was a blanket statement, I can think of some French makes over the years that also require a lot of TLC, like Dolnet, so "more adjustment" isn't just the provenance of SE Asian horns.

I can say that the "professional" Chinese/Taiwanese/Vietnamese saxophones are less expensive than base-model professional horns from Yamaha and Yanagisawa, for instance: $1700 for the Buffet, $2400 for the YAS-62II and $2400 for the Yani A901). P. Mauriat is priced SLIGHTLY lower than the Yamaha and Yani (for the base "pro" models), as is Cannonball, IIRC (they don't post prices online). Makes me wonder how Cannonball and P. Mauriat sells in comparison to the Buffet or Selmer LaVoix/LaVie.

 

[jbtsax]

That does not mean that others do not know the sources, however, or how to interchange parts. As demand builds--and it will (economics 101)--this issue becomes a non-issue.

Al, with all due respect I have been a full time professional repair tech in Utah's largest music store for 8 years and a NAPBIRT member for 7. I go to every repair conference and network with sax techs from all over the country. I also have access to every repair parts source online and in catalogs. If you know of someone who has information about where to buy specific parts for the generic stencil Taiwanese saxes, please share that information with me.

Could someone describe what parts are in need of replacement?

Octave key assemblies are common as are neck tenon receivers. Key guards, key guard feet, felt bumper screws, back guards, F# to G#/Bb adjusting rods, to name a few. Something as simple as a keyguard screw can be a pain to replace if the thread size does not match the common makes.

It is not just for the school instruments, or for the younger players that we replace a lot of parts. People who buy instruments at pawn shops, garage sales, and on ebay come into our shop all the time to try to get parts that were missing when they bought the instrument. Even pro players get their horns mangled at gigs when someone knocks their stand off the stage and the sax goes flying. Sometimes keys and guards are so badly damaged that there is no way to make them look new again and the player wants the sax returned to like new condition. If a part can't be ordered, one can be custom made, but at a premium price and it still may not match the original finish of the sax.

From the perspective of those of us who repair instruments for a living, repair and replacement parts are essential. If this weren't the case major manufacturers like Yamaha, Selmer, Keilwerth, etc wouldn't go the the trouble and expense to back up their instruments in this fashion. As I see it that is one of the main differences between the brokers who order saxes 20 at a time from an undisclosed factory in Taiwan, and authentic dealers of Taiwanese made saxes like Jupiter, Antiqua Winds, Mauriat, Cannonball, etc. One sells you "a" saxophone. The other sells you a brand with longevity and parts support.

John

 

[clarnibass]

First, my point was -- and still is -- IF you needed a part for your horn and needed it immediately, your local repair shop probably has that part in stock for a YAS-23

I think John's post shows pretty clear the difference in areas I was talking about. The parts that for him are common to replace are mostly extremely rare to replace here. The rest of my previous post that you didn't quote explained why some repairers very likely won't have parts for a YAS-23 in stock (because it's very rare to need any parts for them, like in my area).

Second, I cannot recommend to anyone that they get a Taiwanese, Chinese, or Vietnamese-made saxophone -- at this moment. The reason why is because I have not yet seen someone come out and say something like, "This Chinese-made horn is as quality an instrument as a Yamaha! Their quality is consistent, too -- one bad one out of 50 I've tried!" I HAVE seen posts in the form of, "Their quality is improving!" or "They're making great gains!" That's like saying you came in second place ... in a race between two people.

I don't think it's especially a good idea to recommend on not necessarily on what you can read on forums. On forums no matter what you can never really know what the opinion of someone means. It's better to base it on trying it yourself and listen to people who you really know.

So, I have tried a lot of Taiwanese and Chinese saxophones, and I decided I thought several of the Taiwanese are as good as professional saxophones from known companies. So good in fact that I'm considering selling some of them (where before trying them I thought selling instruments is the last I want to do and didn't even consider it).

The better Chinese are also very good. I would recommend them against a student Yamaha for a beginning student because of quality vs. price. The good Chinese wins IMO. Unfortunately there are still many very bad Chinese instruments so it's important to know what is good and what isn't.

Like the problem of the stack rods being loose in their post, the better Taiwanese and Chinese don't have this problem. Actually the better Taiwanese models have accurace of the keys made better than pretty much anything I've seen. OTOH to give the other extreme, I just recently fixed a awful designed linkage on a $6,000 saxophone which caused the low C# to feel like you're a weight lifter. They can improve it, for example, by copying from a Chinese model!

John, I've tried sample orders from two Taiwanese companies. One a brand name and the other direct from factory i.e. exactly the two types you are talking about. Both assure me no problem of getting parts. There can always be surprises in the future, but from the service I had so far, I can offer warrenty just the same on both of these "brands".

 

[Al Stevens]

Al, with all due respect I have been a full time professional repair tech in Utah's largest music store for 8 years and a NAPBIRT member for 7.

That's about as long as I've been playing the saxophone (second time around), but why are we telling each other this? :???:

If you know of someone who has information about where to buy specific parts for the generic stencil Taiwanese saxes, please share that information with me.

Why would I know that? I have a tech who does. Try the factories. If you don't know what factories to try, ask the stencil guys. I suspect that most of them don't do any service and repairs themselves. They'd be happy to know that someone wants to service their brand.

But when demand exceeds supply as I predict, no one will need to ask these questions. The ads will be in the NAPBIRT, or whatever, newsletter.

In the meantime, my tech can repair my horns. Parts are not an issue. He orders them. It's a shrinking globe. Virtually anything is available overnight if you're in a hurry.

One sells you "a" saxophone. The other sells you a brand with longevity and parts support.

And a comprehensive marketing program. And staff. And distributors and dealers in the middle. And necessarily charges more for all that. For the price of a "brand with longevity," I can buy "a" saxophone to play and a second one as backup and for parts. (I didn't do that, though. )

Longevity? That is an elusive measure. It endures only as long as the market holds up. The market is changing. I would not be surprised (although I would be sad) if the stencil companies drove the so-called longevity companies down the tubes. They can probably see it coming, too, which is why they are applying aggressive business and marketing strategies to preserve and protect market share.

 

[Steve]

Could someone describe what parts are in need of replacement?

Over my 50+ years of playing, I recall having to replace one lower keyguard on a curved Yanagisawa soprano when I carelessly bent it........

And that's the big difference between a thoughtful professional and a careless student. Students .. whether they use a school instrument or their own Selmer Paris horn, are stereotypically more careless (and in a group where they're more careless) than with pros.

If we wer to catalog specific repairs and categorize the player, i'm sure most replacement part items would be to the students.


JBT - it's been 8 yrs already ?!?! time flies !!

 

[retread]

And that's the big difference between a thoughtful professional and a careless student. Students .. whether they use a school instrument or their own Selmer Paris horn, are stereotypically more careless (and in a group where they're more careless) than with pros.

Yeah. A few years ago I helped out at a music educators conference that involved student competitions. A high school girl was walking the halls twirling her clarinet as though it was a baton.

 

[pete]

I don't think it's especially a good idea to recommend on not necessarily on what you can read on forums. On forums no matter what you can never really know what the opinion of someone means. It's better to base it on trying it yourself and listen to people who you really know.

Remember, you're a) posting on a forum and b) I don't know you, thus that means I can discount your opinion, right?

At some point, you have to say something like, "I see a LOT of posts from a LOT of people talking about something" and go with that. Additionally, I do know some of the folks that post and I respect their opinions. I haven't seen one of those folks come out and say, "I just went down to the music store and tried a new Barone (for example; no offense to Mr. Barone). It was so good, I'm now selling all my Mark VIs and Inderbinens and telling everyone I meet to buy Barone horns!"

So, I have tried a lot of Taiwanese and Chinese saxophones, and I decided I thought several of the Taiwanese are as good as professional saxophones from known companies. So good in fact that I'm considering selling some of them (where before trying them I thought selling instruments is the last I want to do and didn't even consider it).

The better Chinese are also very good. I would recommend them against a student Yamaha for a beginning student because of quality vs. price. The good Chinese wins IMO. Unfortunately there are still many very bad Chinese instruments so it's important to know what is good and what isn't.

And I note that you don't mention a brand name for a "good horn" .

I'm fully willing to accept that, say, a Buffet 400 is a "better choice" -- new, that is -- than a Yamaha 23 because of the price-point. However, there's not that much difference in price. And the Buffet 400 is supposed to be "pro".

OTOH to give the other extreme, I just recently fixed a awful designed linkage on a $6,000 saxophone which caused the low C# to feel like you're a weight lifter. They can improve it, for example, by copying from a Chinese model!

There are sometimes reasons they don't: patents.

As a side note, the Mark VI patents should all have expired by now. Maybe one of those Chinese/Taiwanese companies could just ... make a good copy.

 

[Al Stevens]

As a side note, the Mark VI patents should all have expired by now. Maybe one of those Chinese/Taiwanese companies could just ... make a good copy.

Yep. Patents expire after 14 or 20 years depending on whether the patent is a utility patent or a design patent.

 

[clarnibass]

Remember, you're a) posting on a forum and b) I don't know you, thus that means I can discount your opinion, right?

You can, it's your choice. I wrote "really know" and by that I meant you know them enough to know how to take their opinion. For repairers, it could be seeing how they explain about technical/mechanical ideas (although it's still not 100% way to know). For players, it could be from listening to them (if they have clips) and being able to understand their level from that, etc. Or maybe you can actually meet them or you already know them before, etc.

Sorry if this is up front, but I remember more than a few times (not on this forum) that a respected member had a clip and I completely changed my opinion about them after listening to it. Luckily the opposite also happened, and listening to a clip strengthened my trust in someone. Sometimes it's a certain attitude as opposed to content that makes someone respected on a forum, and develops some sort of "clique" of that, while the reality might be very different.

Though IMO this forum is one of the few forums usually without those problems

At some point, you have to say something like, "I see a LOT of posts from a LOT of people talking about something" and go with that. Additionally, I do know some of the folks that post and I respect their opinions.

OK. But are you developing an opinion based on what these people write on the forums? Personally I heard a lot of good reviews about the Taiwanese saxophones from people I respect, but I avoided commenting on them until I actually got to try many of them and see/hear for myself.

And I note that you don't mention a brand name for a "good horn" .

Like I said, I'm considering selling them. Since I will only sell locally to people who come to try them, and not online or by mail, I prefer not to mention the brands on forums like this one (unless I have to as disclaimer, but I'd probably not comment about those brands anyway since I'll be biased). Especially now that I haven't decided if I do this or not yet (my sales skills are pretty awful, so I don't know if I'll be able to sell, that is, I'm better at convincing people they don't need to buy something... ).

I'm fully willing to accept that, say, a Buffet 400 is a "better choice" -- new, that is -- than a Yamaha 23 because of the price-point. However, there's not that much difference in price. And the Buffet 400 is supposed to be "pro".

Have you tried a Buffet 400? I tried them. They are Chinese. Compared with many other Chinese saxophones I tried along with the Buffet 400s (a lot of which are significantly cheaper than the Buffets) I thought the Buffets were between average and the the bottom (especially the baritone). So the Buffet happens to be one of the models I wouldn't recommend over a student Yamaha. A student won't have a serious problem with a Buffet 400, but I'm not sure why bother when just as good (or maybe better) model can cost less.

There are sometimes reasons they don't: patents.

This isn't the reason in this case. The basic idea is still the same. The linkage is good on Japanese models, and most European, Taiwanese and Chinese models (the last two usually copied from Japanese or European). Even another very expensive company from the same country had a good design. It's just a very small and specific problem in a shape of one part that causes this completley awful feel to the key, and the pad just barely closes (make the spring lighter and the pad won't close unless modifying the linkage).

 

[clarnibass]

One sells you "a" saxophone. The other sells you a brand with longevity and parts support.

And a comprehensive marketing program. And staff. And distributors and dealers in the middle. And necessarily charges more for all that. For the price of a "brand with longevity," I can buy "a" saxophone to play and a second one as backup and for parts. (I didn't do that, though. )

IME it's not exactly like that. This is based on playing lot of different Taiwanese saxophones, and also dealing with both types of companies. I have ordered from a Taiwanese brand name company, and also direct from a factory, and thoroughly compare them. The latter is of course less expensive. But there are several differences, and price is just one of them. I'm not talking about longevity which isn't important to most people if they like the saxophone. Parts is not really important IMO but both companies can get me parts just the same.

The difference come from the brand name simply being a better saxophone. Not necessarily from adjustment condition, which direct from factory can be just as good. My impression is the brand name company, being Taiwanese also, is (as I think you say in English) "on top of things" in Taiwan. They have enough "power" to have the best instruments made, specific parts they want, what to get, etc. etc.

In theory, I could probably (eventually) get saxophones direct from a factory and get to the level of the brand name company. But I'd have to make a very big investment. Actually, I'd have to sell the saxophones at a higher price than what I can sell the brand name company now. Only if I sold globally a huge amount I could afford that, which would make it a brand name with distributers and dealers, etc.

BTW I just checked the prices of several Taiwanese saxophones. I checked the best models from the companies (the most equivilent ones I could find). The "generic" ones are not really half price from the name brand distributed ones. The least expensive I found was about 60%-65% of the "name". Others are more around 70%-80%. When it gets into the "new" finishes or materials, it can be even closer, sometimes almost the same.

 

[jbtsax]

Why would I know that? I have a tech who does. Try the factories. If you don't know what factories to try, ask the stencil guys. I suspect that most of them don't do any service and repairs themselves. They'd be happy to know that someone wants to service their brand.

With all due respect Al. The factories do not sell parts to individuals whether they are in the repair trade or not. They are not set up to do that.

But when demand exceeds supply as I predict, no one will need to ask these questions. The ads will be in the NAPBIRT, or whatever, newsletter.

???

In the meantime, my tech can repair my horns. Parts are not an issue. He orders them. It's a shrinking globe. Virtually anything is available overnight if you're in a hurry.

If you are referring to your Barone horn, I am asking you again to find out from him where he orders parts for "Barone" horns if that is the case and to pass that information on to me to share with the rest of the repair community. I assure you we all will be very grateful.

For the price of a "brand with longevity," I can buy "a" saxophone to play and a second one as backup and for parts. (I didn't do that, though. )

Now you are making sense about how to get replacement parts for your "generic" Taiwan saxophone. I won't insult you by pointing out it just doubled in cost.

John

 

[Al Stevens]

With all due respect Al. The factories do not sell parts to individuals whether they are in the repair trade or not. They are not set up to do that.

As I said, talk to the stencil guy. If you are going to service his products, a service he apparently needs, surely he'll arrange for you to get parts.

If you are referring to your Barone horn, I am asking you again to find out from him where he orders parts for "Barone" horns if that is the case and to pass that information on to me to share with the rest of the repair community. I assure you we all will be very grateful.

None of the several Barones purchased around here have had that kind of breakdown. Good build quality and all that. My tech, however, after setting up my tenor and alto assured me that parts are no problem. (PM parts fit my PB tenor, for example.) He's a member of the repair community. He's been at it in his own store for at least 20 years. Next time I see him I'll ask him for more specifics.

Now you are making sense about how to get replacement parts for your "generic" Taiwan saxophone. I won't insult you by pointing out it just doubled in cost.

All a matter of perspective and agenda. Think of it more like two for the price of one.

 

[tictactux]

The thing is - any brand name that Mrs and Mr Doe *might* have heard of sells better than whatever off-brand instrument (of same or even better quality) might yield. I don't say it's good, but it appears to happen. (I can sell a used Yamaha flute better than a Bundy even if my flutist bandmate says that the Bundy plays easier with a comparable sound)
And if the Doe family doesn't have a say, then the teacher does, and the average instructor doesn't know all those brands but probably just remembers the long-life names that have been there since dawn of mankind.
Third, repair people often seem to shy away from DIY replacements. They call the importer, the importer has a price list, the price is quoted to the customer. No time to lose with a student instrument, too little margin, too little time, too many more important customers.

*shrug*

Okay, this image has come out bleaker than planned. Maybe truth isn't all that grim...I don't know, this is just what I witness around me.

 

[Jacques5646]

Student Yamaha

> ...
The Yamaha 275 and newer horns do have Selmer-BA-like keywork. The 23 doesn't. What I'm referring to more is alternate keywork, especially the articulated G# and/or G# cluster layout. I'd really prefer students to play a Yamaha 32/34/475/52/575 because they do have the Selmer-style keywork, but these are much more expensive, even used.

Sorry to unearth this interesting post and to very gently hijack the thread for a few seconds: could anybody give us the equivalence chart (if any) between Yam 23, 32, etc. and 475, 575, etc.
My son's alto is a 475 and I've been wondering for long if it was the equivalent to, e.g., a 475.

Thanks in advance

J

 

[tictactux]

My son's alto is a 475 and I've been wondering for long if it was the equivalent to, e.g., a 475.

I think we can safely assume this to be the case.

 

[Carl H.]

My son's alto is a 475 and I've been wondering for long if it was the equivalent to, e.g., a 475.

I think we can safely assume this to be the case.

I think you'se guys is odd.;-)