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Are reed players suddenly wealthy?
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Do you have a link ?
I could not find it.
It could just be a marketing ploy?
Many places will have a SALE based upon an inflated price
US buyers are great at snapping stuff like this up.
From time to time I go to liquidators sales at stores just to see stuff.
From stores that I was familiar with i find that the tag price is normally at retail or above, then they start their sale there.
Not the normal discounted price from retail as an every day price.
people tend to buy when they see the term "SALE" irregardless if it's different from a regular price or even higher.
One of those psychological things and the "buy now" mantra people have.
I could not find it.
It could just be a marketing ploy?
Many places will have a SALE based upon an inflated price
US buyers are great at snapping stuff like this up.
From time to time I go to liquidators sales at stores just to see stuff.
From stores that I was familiar with i find that the tag price is normally at retail or above, then they start their sale there.
Not the normal discounted price from retail as an every day price.
people tend to buy when they see the term "SALE" irregardless if it's different from a regular price or even higher.
One of those psychological things and the "buy now" mantra people have.
Huh? Really? Well that just sucks.
Seriously though, I wrote an article in December about about Music Econ 101 that spells out why being a working musician is just about impossible these days. (At least in some areas.)
I play in a community symphonic band, with young people in university studying music. I seriously wonder what their future is going to look like. Just how many music stores need sales clerks...Since that's what the majority of music grads are doing in these parts, combined with any playing they can scrape up.
This just makes me sad, not much I can do about the fabulous musicians out there who must have a day job to support their dream job.
Looking at the price of new instruments - saxes, clarinets, trupmets, etc
I don't know how a working musician can make ends meet.
Except for buying used.
A Ref 36 tenor is $8,119.00 at wwbw ?
These used to be $3k last time I looked into them.
How can a musician getting out of college (and not wanting debt) afford one of these.
it's probably worth more than their first used car.
add an over priced mpc and you have non-student debt that is hard to get rid of.
I noticed the rise in prices with Keilwerth horns back when they were changing their offerings before they were bought out by Buffet.
The prices shot up. Less Demand, make less, thus the economics of it has to rise prices.
With the initial influx of quality Mauriat, Cannonball etc. was the first wave of lower cost pro horns. Now more influx such as MacSax, Antigua Pro, Theo Wanne plus the existing plethora of all the other misc. brands. these really hurt the economies of focused horns maker like Keilwerth and Selmer Paris.
I should have bought that Yamaha 875 at $2700 back in 2007ish instead of that Cannonball (which I sold after a year).
I don't know how a working musician can make ends meet.
Except for buying used.
A Ref 36 tenor is $8,119.00 at wwbw ?
These used to be $3k last time I looked into them.
How can a musician getting out of college (and not wanting debt) afford one of these.
it's probably worth more than their first used car.
add an over priced mpc and you have non-student debt that is hard to get rid of.
I noticed the rise in prices with Keilwerth horns back when they were changing their offerings before they were bought out by Buffet.
The prices shot up. Less Demand, make less, thus the economics of it has to rise prices.
With the initial influx of quality Mauriat, Cannonball etc. was the first wave of lower cost pro horns. Now more influx such as MacSax, Antigua Pro, Theo Wanne plus the existing plethora of all the other misc. brands. these really hurt the economies of focused horns maker like Keilwerth and Selmer Paris.
I should have bought that Yamaha 875 at $2700 back in 2007ish instead of that Cannonball (which I sold after a year).
My Yamaha YBS-52 was $1800, new, in 1987ish. Adjusted for inflation, that's under $3800. They now sell for $5471. The first used car I bought was an '84 Pontiac Fiero, which I bought around 1990 for $1500 (if you know anything about Fieros, you understand why I can remember the cost). so, yes, a bit cheaper than the first car I bought. And the YBS-52 is definitely, positively worth more than an '84 Fiero
.I'm not going to check at this moment to be 100% accurate, but I do know that there are specialty sax mouthpieces out there for $1500 and possibly more. Hey, bari sax reeds are around $4 apiece.
FWIW, as a pro computer tech, I've sunk at least as much money into computers and computer equipment as I have into saxophones and sax equipment, including college costs and lessons. I just mention that because it'd be interesting to learn how much it'd cost to be considered competent for any particular job.
I think Pete, your throwing computers into the discussion is really on point. If we all think back for a moment--at least all of us who are over the age of 20 --to the amount of $ we have spent on computers, and their related paraphernalia, now that's truly crazy. And I'm not even talking as a tech like Pete, who is expected to know the latest and greatest stuff.
My first web-ready PC, printer, & initial software was around $4,000 in 1998. I bought it just before starting grad school. That one lasted about 5 years, and then I needed another one. By then the prices had come down a bit. Oh, but by then I was also needing a laptop, so then I had 2 computers that needed to be replaced roughly every 5 to 6 years.
Fast forward to today, I have one really good laptop (just <$2,000), but now add to that a tablet and a smart phone. These are just expenses that we just expect to spend $ on, and we know that are going to be tossed ever 2 or so years (smart phones & tablets), or 5 years (laptops). That's just freakin' nuts.
So a conservative estimate would be that if add up all the hardware and software monies that I have spent since 1998, I'd be close to $15K. Now for that $ I could have bought a really beautiful Selmer or JK that will outlast all these electronic things that we know we will be disposing of. Yet we have worries about spending $ on electronics, knowing that they will be obsolete. Why?
Obviously it's gotten to the point that it would be hard to function in the world without connectivity, and I'm not suggesting that we unplug. My point however, is that this connectivity has changed our mindset to the degree that we don't have an issue with spending the amount of $ we do on disposable electronics, yet complain that the costs of handmade, long-lasting, high quality musical instruments has gone up. We balk at spending $10K on a sax that will last our lifetime, but think nothing of dropping $2K on a computer that will see the recycling depot in 5 years.
In any event, I would just like to finish this rant with what I often say: Just be thankful that we are not string bass or cello players. Have you priced those instruments lately? Or checked high quality bows? They make our high end saxes and MPs look the flea market specials. I'm just saying....
--to the amount of $ we have spent on computers, and their related paraphernalia, now that's truly crazy. And I'm not even talking as a tech like Pete, who is expected to know the latest and greatest stuff. My first web-ready PC, printer, & initial software was around $4,000 in 1998. I bought it just before starting grad school. That one lasted about 5 years, and then I needed another one. By then the prices had come down a bit. Oh, but by then I was also needing a laptop, so then I had 2 computers that needed to be replaced roughly every 5 to 6 years.
Fast forward to today, I have one really good laptop (just <$2,000), but now add to that a tablet and a smart phone. These are just expenses that we just expect to spend $ on, and we know that are going to be tossed ever 2 or so years (smart phones & tablets), or 5 years (laptops). That's just freakin' nuts.
So a conservative estimate would be that if add up all the hardware and software monies that I have spent since 1998, I'd be close to $15K. Now for that $ I could have bought a really beautiful Selmer or JK that will outlast all these electronic things that we know we will be disposing of. Yet we have worries about spending $ on electronics, knowing that they will be obsolete. Why?
Obviously it's gotten to the point that it would be hard to function in the world without connectivity, and I'm not suggesting that we unplug. My point however, is that this connectivity has changed our mindset to the degree that we don't have an issue with spending the amount of $ we do on disposable electronics, yet complain that the costs of handmade, long-lasting, high quality musical instruments has gone up. We balk at spending $10K on a sax that will last our lifetime, but think nothing of dropping $2K on a computer that will see the recycling depot in 5 years.
In any event, I would just like to finish this rant
with what I often say: Just be thankful that we are not string bass or cello players. Have you priced those instruments lately? Or checked high quality bows? They make our high end saxes and MPs look the flea market specials. I'm just saying....
Throwing computers into the discussion brings up a point but widens the discussion.
The student buys a horn .. which costs as much as our collective electronics over a time span.
If the horn isn't paid in cash, then it's cost + finance cost, which for a personal loan / credit card can be quite expensive in total. Same with computers.
At that point a new pro has to have income to pay those monthly bills, otherwise other fees apply. (same for any tool, computer, etc)
Yes, A saxophone is the tool to get one's job done. Though one has an option to buy a YTS-23 versus a YTS-875; Selmer USA vs Paris (with or without special engraving); etc. For some reason we all strive for the better one. LOL
And it can be one horn for a very long time, unlike electronics which has a built in obsolescence; my 8086 is a doorstop, where as my 1974 sax still works just like it did back then.
Back when I was doing computer consulting I had an entire network in my basement to test Novell Network, MS Windows NT Server, a database server, other development stuff so I could test network applications that they functioned properly with multiple users.
But Computers for the way I use them today have actually gone down in price over time. On my cheap sub $500 laptop I have Oracle database and SQL Server on it. To do that 6 years ago I'd need to spend much more $$$
Saxophones seem to be driving faster up in price, even intermediate horns whether new or used even if the price averages lower over time that we own it, which can be a long time. I bought my first pro horn in 1982 and I still have it today. Purchase price was about $1200, so that comes out to about $35.30 per year (excluding maintenance costs, mpcs, reeds, etc). But $1200 was a lot more money back then being 16 with a paper route. And unfortunately, I own more than one pro horn now. Not that the one I bought couldn't do the job today, one just likes "options".
The student buys a horn .. which costs as much as our collective electronics over a time span.
If the horn isn't paid in cash, then it's cost + finance cost, which for a personal loan / credit card can be quite expensive in total. Same with computers.
At that point a new pro has to have income to pay those monthly bills, otherwise other fees apply. (same for any tool, computer, etc)
Yes, A saxophone is the tool to get one's job done. Though one has an option to buy a YTS-23 versus a YTS-875; Selmer USA vs Paris (with or without special engraving); etc. For some reason we all strive for the better one. LOL
And it can be one horn for a very long time, unlike electronics which has a built in obsolescence; my 8086 is a doorstop, where as my 1974 sax still works just like it did back then.
Back when I was doing computer consulting I had an entire network in my basement to test Novell Network, MS Windows NT Server, a database server, other development stuff so I could test network applications that they functioned properly with multiple users.
But Computers for the way I use them today have actually gone down in price over time. On my cheap sub $500 laptop I have Oracle database and SQL Server on it. To do that 6 years ago I'd need to spend much more $$$
Saxophones seem to be driving faster up in price, even intermediate horns whether new or used even if the price averages lower over time that we own it, which can be a long time. I bought my first pro horn in 1982 and I still have it today. Purchase price was about $1200, so that comes out to about $35.30 per year (excluding maintenance costs, mpcs, reeds, etc). But $1200 was a lot more money back then being 16 with a paper route. And unfortunately, I own more than one pro horn now. Not that the one I bought couldn't do the job today, one just likes "options".
Well, I'd bet your 8086 will still run software for an 8086 without a problem. Provided it's been stored properly, otherwise you might have some issues with components that have worn out. Kinda like a sax, really.
Speaking of obsolescence, I built my PC myself. It's now almost 5 years old. It's still faster than my almost two year old laptop. And I have a nice laptop. One of the reasons to buy a high-end PC is that it will last for a long time. I only paid about $800 at the time, not charging myself my hourly rate, of course ($9700 an hour, one hour minimum). However, I do most of my work now on an iMac, because I mainly do stuff on the web and the Macs just more fun. Six years old and still going strong. All three of these machines run the latest OS and current software. Except for my 4 or 5 year old version of Dreamweaver ... which replaced my 10 year old version of Dreamweaver last year.
I think that everyone that requires equipment for his job wants the best possible equipment at the lowest possible price. I would have loved getting, say, a Selmer Super Balanced Action back when I bought my bari in the 1980s, but, even if I could have found one, it would have been out of my price range. I would have loved a new Lenovo Yoga Pro laptop, but my used one was less than half the price and it still easily contends for best convertible laptop available, even though it's almost 2 years old.
For that matter, I'd love to buy the best possible car. However, I can't afford a new Acura/Lexus. Well, those don't get anywhere near the MPG of my Sentra, so that's something.
Yes my 8086 runs. But what jobs would I get based on the software I have on it?
I can't support the latest version of windows and Oracle Server on it? Where do I put the CD to install software which is larger than the Harddisk?
unlike a sax.
The SBA still plays like a modern Ref horn, matter of fact a lot of people would prefer the SBA.
Whereas few (if any) would want to use the 8086 for their job even with MS Word v1 for DOS and Wordperfect 5 on it, and Windows 2.1.
laser printer drivers ?
I can't support the latest version of windows and Oracle Server on it? Where do I put the CD to install software which is larger than the Harddisk?
unlike a sax.
The SBA still plays like a modern Ref horn, matter of fact a lot of people would prefer the SBA.
Whereas few (if any) would want to use the 8086 for their job even with MS Word v1 for DOS and Wordperfect 5 on it, and Windows 2.1.
laser printer drivers ?
Let's think about that for a couple minutes.
An original saxophone by A. Sax has the vague shape of a modern saxophone. Yes, you could play it. It wouldn't be as easy as playing a modern horn, tho. Where's all the chromatic keywork? Non-automatic-octave key? Low Bb? You then have to ask yourself, "How many modern saxophonists want to buy one to use as their everyday play horn?" To make life even more interesting, slap one of those new $1500 mouthpieces on it. I bet it sorta works, but you're going to have to really fight it. Hope the horn's close enough to A=440hz, too, or you're going to only be playing solo.
Hey, both a Ford Model T and my Nissan Sentra are cars, but I'd have to have a bit of instruction to even know how to start a Model T, much less drive one: it's got three floor pedals and none of them are for the gas.
FWIW and IIRC, the 8086 was used in a bunch of other ways, other than just as a desktop computer. I know some older processors were used as controllers in cars and other machinery. Sometimes that machinery has not been upgraded in years and/or that upgrade is too expensive. I remember having to find an old 80286 to add to a piece of measuring equipment where I used to work, because the equipment was specifically designed around that 80286 -- and the replacement for that piece of equipment was around $1 million. Not to mention training costs. I know there are a bunch of authors that use typewriters instead of computers. I seem to remember that Piers Anthony (SF writer) used an 80286 with WordPerfect 2.1 until his machine finally couldn't turn on anymore. That was only about 10 years ago.
The point I'm attempting to make -- I think -- is that probably most professions and products have evolved with new technology and you have to pay for those evolutionary steps. The old stuff can be used and you can be productive with it, but you probably need to make some adaptations.
An original saxophone by A. Sax has the vague shape of a modern saxophone. Yes, you could play it. It wouldn't be as easy as playing a modern horn, tho. Where's all the chromatic keywork? Non-automatic-octave key? Low Bb? You then have to ask yourself, "How many modern saxophonists want to buy one to use as their everyday play horn?" To make life even more interesting, slap one of those new $1500 mouthpieces on it. I bet it sorta works, but you're going to have to really fight it. Hope the horn's close enough to A=440hz, too, or you're going to only be playing solo.
Hey, both a Ford Model T and my Nissan Sentra are cars, but I'd have to have a bit of instruction to even know how to start a Model T, much less drive one: it's got three floor pedals and none of them are for the gas.
FWIW and IIRC, the 8086 was used in a bunch of other ways, other than just as a desktop computer. I know some older processors were used as controllers in cars and other machinery. Sometimes that machinery has not been upgraded in years and/or that upgrade is too expensive. I remember having to find an old 80286 to add to a piece of measuring equipment where I used to work, because the equipment was specifically designed around that 80286 -- and the replacement for that piece of equipment was around $1 million. Not to mention training costs. I know there are a bunch of authors that use typewriters instead of computers. I seem to remember that Piers Anthony (SF writer) used an 80286 with WordPerfect 2.1 until his machine finally couldn't turn on anymore. That was only about 10 years ago.
The point I'm attempting to make -- I think -- is that probably most professions and products have evolved with new technology and you have to pay for those evolutionary steps. The old stuff can be used and you can be productive with it, but you probably need to make some adaptations.
going back to an early Adolph Sax comparison
would only be similar if we go back to an early computer, such as a MANIAC mainframe or something and it still wouldn't be as old of a comparison.
The key comparison here is that
as computers age and software gets more complex the older the computer is less likely to be useable today in a modern setting.
Whereas even though saxophones age we can still use a very old saxophone (much older than the computer comparison) for modern day playing. Yes there are some very old saxes which would would not prefer to use. But we actually could use it for a modern performance, unlike trying to load Windows 10 on that 8086 or something much earlier (though much newer than an older SBA sax).
I "could" use an old Albert clarinet for a modern performance. I could, but why when I would have the convenience of a more modern clarinet (or sax). Where as I "doubt" Windows 10 would even try to start installing on that old computer thus it's not even a consideration nor a possibility.
I understand your comparison
Though saxophones have gotten more expensive over time
and computers have gotten cheaper
would only be similar if we go back to an early computer, such as a MANIAC mainframe or something and it still wouldn't be as old of a comparison.
The key comparison here is that
as computers age and software gets more complex the older the computer is less likely to be useable today in a modern setting.
Whereas even though saxophones age we can still use a very old saxophone (much older than the computer comparison) for modern day playing. Yes there are some very old saxes which would would not prefer to use. But we actually could use it for a modern performance, unlike trying to load Windows 10 on that 8086 or something much earlier (though much newer than an older SBA sax).
I "could" use an old Albert clarinet for a modern performance. I could, but why when I would have the convenience of a more modern clarinet (or sax). Where as I "doubt" Windows 10 would even try to start installing on that old computer thus it's not even a consideration nor a possibility.
I understand your comparison
Though saxophones have gotten more expensive over time
and computers have gotten cheaper
Steve and JfW, I've been playing with computers since about 1980ish or so and I've been working with computers professionally since 1987 or so. I've easily spent more time with computers than my various instruments and singing, even when I was a professional musician. Then you bring out the Internet in 1993.
Maybe another way of looking at it is -- and excepting the part where I get paid for doing computer stuff -- if you've got a couple of free hours, would you rather practice or do computer stuff?
Well, I know I've spent at least that in both computers and music.Malcolm Gladwell said:
Maybe another way of looking at it is -- and excepting the part where I get paid for doing computer stuff -- if you've got a couple of free hours, would you rather practice or do computer stuff?
Yeah, my profession is computers too. But I'd rather be playing.
Even with the advent of all these electronic gadget devices I still minimize my time on them and spend time on other hobbies such as photography, cycling even archery to name a few.
I have an R13 right now that I want to show videos of how oiling of a barrel expands the dried out bore and makes it all smooth again versus the crevices it has now. A new hobby .. making Instrument based videos on various things. Sooner or later.
Even with the advent of all these electronic gadget devices I still minimize my time on them and spend time on other hobbies such as photography, cycling even archery to name a few.
I have an R13 right now that I want to show videos of how oiling of a barrel expands the dried out bore and makes it all smooth again versus the crevices it has now. A new hobby .. making Instrument based videos on various things. Sooner or later.
Personally, what I'd love is someone to say that he'd/she'd pay my current salary, benefits and adjust for inflation every year for the rest of my life, I'd do woodwind-related computer stuff all the time. Now, if the lady that won the $758 million Powerball jackpot happens to be a member of this 'site, there's an idea for you on what to spend some of that on!
everything is crazily expensive now
i think the whole world is having too much money to spend... EXCEPT me =(