Bass saxophones & setups

I've played a lot of Zinner bass sax mouthpieces because Benedikt Eppelsheim was good enough to exchange pieces with me until I found what suits me best. Most of the Zinners were very good. There are four chambers:

A chamber - Large chamber with a tiny rollover baffle just behind the tip, close to the old Conn bass mouthpieces, but a little louder and brighter, with a larger selection of tip openings. My favorite, especially when you don't have to blow the walls down.

B chamber - Medium chamber, meaning the chamber is the same diameter as the backbore. However, the backbore for Eppelsheim and Keilwerth basses is enormous, so the chamber is still pretty large. There is a rollover baffle that extends about 3/4" back from the tip. It looks a lot like an old slant signature baritone sax mouthpiece, and it performs in a similar manner on bass sax. It's a lot louder and brighter than the A chamber, but still manageable. The "bad" notes on vintage basses, such as C natural with the standard fingering, are still pretty good with this mouthpiece.

C chamber - A lot like the B chamber, but the rollover baffle is much higher. The chamber in back is still fairly large. I would describe the sound as "brittle" and this piece is much less flexible.

The standard Keilwerth Zinner has a square chamber much like many modern high baffle mouthpieces. I use square high baffles on tenor and baritone, but I can't see any advantage of this Zinner piece over the B chamber. I'm sorry, but I forgot the designation of this chamber.

As far as tip openings on the Zinners. By actual measurement of my own Zinner bass pieces, using a very accurate Theo Wanne tip gauge, the openings are:

Zinner bass sax 6 = .095"
Zinner bass sax 7 = .100"
Zinner bass sax 8 = . 108"
Zinner bass sax 9 = .120"

There are also 2 backbores. The big one, for Eppelsheims and Keilwerths (Coufs, also) has a backbore of about 20 mm. Not a bad thing, really, because you can recork an old Conn or Buescher neck with standard 1/16" cork like a tenor sax and it fits.

However, if you intend to swap back and forth between the Zinner and a baritone sax mouthpiece, I understand Zinner makes these mouthpieces with a smaller, baritone sax sized backbore. I have never seen one of these, though.
 
Jody Jazz Bass:

The 2 main acoustical prerequisites, substantiated in every published acoustical study, are chamber/reed volume and playing frequency, as mentioned above. That the JJ ad neglects to make any reference to any established acoustical fact at all, I'm inclined to take the "Phi Proportions" and "Secondary Window - ... a moving ball striking a moving bat. Home Run!", as marketing hype.

Perhaps the baffle has a nice sound with Phi Proportions. I'd like to analyze all their numbers. As for the secondary window, it is a way to enlarge the chamber without making the mouthpiece fatter. The analogy to baseball is total B.S. The clamped end of the reed does not vibrate or move any more than the mouthpiece wall , it is less dense (cane anyway) and would absorb more sound energy than the mouthpiece wall, and further, any wall vibration is so out of phase with the less dense air column, it would serve only to interfere with tone production.

It sounds like a good mouthpiece, but the marketing is hype, IMO.
 
More Jody Jazz:

I can see where the extended window design would result in massive reed swelling (cane reeds) as the reed would soak up a great deal more moisture over practically it's entire length, compared to a cane reed on a normal windowed mouthpiece. I imagine that the swelling would form an impression of the window on the reed surface, which might even improve the seal, provided you never took the reed off. That would (no pun intended) change the inner dimensions of the mouthpiece some as well.

This would not be a problem with synthetic reeds.
 
Bass vs. Baritone Mouthpiece/Reed Volume Requirements:

Based upon my measurements of a Gloger bass neck, and a Martin baritone neck (and these results will be conservative, since accurate calculations must be from the main body tube taper) here are the mouthpiece/reed volume requirements for a bass and baritone saxophone:

baritone: 24,753.1 mm3
bass: 33,070 mm3
difference: 8,315.9 mm3 (just over .5 cubic inch)

In using a baritone mouthpiece on a bass sax, pulling the mouthpiece out further from where the end of the inserted neck would normally be (on the baritone) will increase the chamber volume, however, since the mouthpiece is so narrow (compared to what the bass needs) pulling out to the correct volume results in a mouthpiece chamber that is too long, and low in pitch. The palm keys notes will be flat compared to low octave.

If we just make the mouthpiece chamber wider, and leave it on the same starting point on the cork, the chamber will be the right volume, but now the chamber is too short and will be high in pitch. The palm keys will be sharp.

In order to use a bari mouthpiece, one need achieve a balance between the volume added by making the chamber both wider and longer, and the change in pitch resulting from pulling out. It can't be done haphazardly.
 
so for those of us normal people...

How can we have functional mouthpieces on different instruments. I.e. Runyon vs. Link STM vs. Caravan/Goldbeck etc. Chamber sizes going from small to massive... I'm kinda confuzzle by this
 
saxplayer1004 said:
so for those of us normal people...

How can we have functional mouthpieces on different instruments. I.e. Runyon vs. Link STM vs. Caravan/Goldbeck etc. Chamber sizes going from small to massive... I'm kinda confuzzle by this
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Well, luckily it's all a matter of degree, actually part of the volume is the player's vocal tract, everyone and every horn is different, and the saxophone is very flexible. For guys who just need to change mouthpieces all the time, I wouldn't worry about it, unless you were having intonation and response problems with any one particular mouthpiece.

For guys who have found their ideal horn and mouthpiece combination however, they would do well to balance their chamber volume, in order to get the very best sound and response out of their musical marriage.
 
MartinMods, that's almost like trying to have it both ways: either you need to have the mouthpiece designed in a particular way to satisfy the requirements of using it on whichever pitch of saxophone or it doesn't matter because everyone's different and the horn is so flexible, players should be able to compensate.

Two points: you mention that the clarinet is a different animal, thus if I say something like, "A lot of Bb clarinet players switch their mouthpiece to C clarinet and don't have severe intonation issues", the analogy won't extend to the sax because you're comparing (poly)cylindrical bores to conical, as you asserted. OK. However, I also mentioned that A. Sax never made any specific design for any saxophone mouthpiece and it's not only possible, but probable, that the genesis of the saxophone was Adolphe slapping a bass clarinet mouthpiece on an ophicleide and seeing how it sounds. Going from that, it's really not that difficult to conclude that the original saxophone mouthpieces were converted clarinet mouthpieces.

The second point is that if the saxophone is a conical bore and all the mouthpiece is supposed to do is to "complete" the cone, why isn't it also conically bored? Hey, I know you can slap a straight extension to your bell and call it a low A sax (as with the Conn 11M) -- but one would assume that the end that's used for generating the sound shouldn't deviate from that cone idea, because bad juju will happen (intonation, etc.): hey, people talk about disabling that extension on the 11M to get the thing to play in better tune.

Again, I'm a believer that a specific mouthpiece does fit a specific horn and specific player, but I think that's an overkill of variables and could easily imply that yes, I can use an alto sax mouthpiece on a bass sax and play it in tune, provided I'm "flexible" enough.

(BTB, interesting discussion. I like talking about new things.)
 
pete said:
MartinMods, that's almost like trying to have it both ways: either you need to have the mouthpiece designed in a particular way to satisfy the requirements of using it on whichever pitch of saxophone or it doesn't matter because everyone's different and the horn is so flexible, players should be able to compensate.
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Ideally, the mouthpiece would be designed with one particular instrument (not instrument brand or size or model - one serial #) and one particular player in mind. As A. Benade wrote in his fine book Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics, p. 471, "We are now in a good position to understand why it is that oboists and bassoonists must be so careful to get the right combination of reed dimensions and cane stiffness..... Saxophone players would lead much easier lives if the mouthpiece cavities used on their instruments were fitted as meticulously to their instruments as are the double reeds used by their colleagues."

But then we have players who absolutely must use a bag full of different tenor mouthpieces on a rack of different tenor saxophones. You can't have it both ways. For the absolute best tone quality and response, match one mouthpiece to one horn and stick with it. If you can't do that, don't worry about it. You aren't concerned about the best, you want variety.

pete said:
Two points: you mention that the clarinet is a different animal, thus if I say something like, "A lot of Bb clarinet players switch their mouthpiece to C clarinet and don't have severe intonation issues", the analogy won't extend to the sax because you're comparing (poly)cylindrical bores to conical, as you asserted. OK. However, I also mentioned that A. Sax never made any specific design for any saxophone mouthpiece and it's not only possible, but probable, that the genesis of the saxophone was Adolphe slapping a bass clarinet mouthpiece on an ophicleide and seeing how it sounds. Going from that, it's really not that difficult to conclude that the original saxophone mouthpieces were converted clarinet mouthpieces.
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That may be. A clarinet mouthpiece will work on a saxophone without problem, provided, it has the correct chamber volume and chamber length. The thing that makes saxophones and clarinets different is the body tube shape, not the mouthpiece.

pete said:
The second point is that if the saxophone is a conical bore and all the mouthpiece is supposed to do is to "complete" the cone, why isn't it also conically bored?
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The mouthpiece is not only supposed to complete the cone, naturally. It is also supposed to generate the energy that makes the sound. I'm sure someone experimented with a tiny reed and a cone shaped mouthpiece, but then they figured out that a larger reed made more sound. Then they probably flipped it around and put a big reed on the big end of the conical mouthpiece, only now, the thing was too big to fit in anyone's mouth. So, it looks like they went the middle of the road route, on the mouthpiece, 'cause that's what works the best.

pete said:
Hey, I know you can slap a straight extension to your bell and call it a low A sax (as with the Conn 11M)
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Sure, but it will have a different, less saxophone like sound, than one with a conical extension.
 
Merlin said:
Ron, what tip opening is that piece?
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Holy mackerel I haven't been on the forum for a while......
I'm not sure Merlin if I answered this for you ...ever.
I'd have to check with B.Eppelscheim as he would know...It feels like a 95 medium long facing , it is a model 54S-6 and has a rich big voice and can be played quite strongly. With a legere Bass reed, it is actually vibrant and dark.

Has the same big voice as a Caravan with a little more projection and power.
The facings are definitely different on the two making the Caravan more classical oriented and the Zinner more diverse.
 
My experiences would admittedly be small but I do find certain mouthpieces relate easier to certain horns, so without assuming I have much knowledge on this I have found that my throat can only adjust a given amount of tuning adjustments and less effort when the chamber most correctly matches the horn.

Case in point is my Conn horns from pre WWII, they all perform best and easiest with large bore MP, where as my modern horn is more accustomed to smaller bores however UI can adjust my playing to either, with some effort.

I would think that what Lance is saying is true that the bore is part of the over all volume math of the neck and that musicians can make up some of the differences with their throats but at some point one may find oneself working too hard to satisfy those requirements when a simple more accurate mouthpiece chamber size to the horns volume requirements would suffice.

In turn I nearly eliminated all Bass sax struggles by getting a true large chamber BASS sax mouthpiece and seldom suffer with any alternate fingerings to achieve intonation quirks. I'm sure there is an optimum bore to work toward as there is an optimum sound and playability to aim for...all related to how much effort time and skill being applied.
 
Apologies in advance for bumping this thread after more than a decade. But I'm quite late to the party and just now seriously getting into the bass sax, which I'm playing in a trad jazz combo. I'll probably be bumping even more old threads in the coming weeks.

For those playing a bari mouthpiece, what reed works best for you, bari or bass, cane or synthetic? For me, a cane bass reed gives me a fuller, deeper, more resonant sound than bari. They even improve the intonation and response a little (that could be in my imagination though). I've managed to find a couple of boxes of Rico orange box contrabass clarinet / bass sax reeds on ebay for a reasonable price that should last me a couple of years at least.

I tried 2 Legere reeds. The bari reed I tried, which works quite well on bari, lacks the bottom end needed for bass. And the tone quality gets even worse near the top of the horn. So that didn't work for me. The contrabass clarinet reed I tried was a total bust. It sounded like a duck call and was extremely flat on the palm notes. I was really hoping a synthetic reed would work since they work so well for me on bari, but no luck so far.
 
BarrySachs said:
Apologies in advance for bumping this thread after more than a decade.
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I've mentioned it elsewhere and I'll mention it again: this is never really a problem. If you can't find an answer you're looking for, feel free to bump or create a new thread.

My bass sax experience is almost 35 years out of date, so I can't help much. I can say that I used a Sigurd Rascher bari piece on a Conn New Wonder. The Rascher is bigger than the Conn Eagle mouthpiece.
 
BarrySachs said:
Apologies in advance for bumping this thread after more than a decade. But I'm quite late to the party and just now seriously getting into the bass sax, which I'm playing in a trad jazz combo. I'll probably be bumping even more old threads in the coming weeks.

For those playing a bari mouthpiece, what reed works best for you, bari or bass, cane or synthetic? For me, a cane bass reed gives me a fuller, deeper, more resonant sound than bari. They even improve the intonation and response a little (that could be in my imagination though). I've managed to find a couple of boxes of Rico orange box contrabass clarinet / bass sax reeds on ebay for a reasonable price that should last me a couple of years at least.

I tried 2 Legere reeds. The bari reed I tried, which works quite well on bari, lacks the bottom end needed for bass. And the tone quality gets even worse near the top of the horn. So that didn't work for me. The contrabass clarinet reed I tried was a total bust. It sounded like a duck call and was extremely flat on the palm notes. I was really hoping a synthetic reed would work since they work so well for me on bari, but no luck so far.
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No reason to apologize. I am just loving the fact that we have another bass sax player on the board. Welcome!

Your post reminds me that I need to update my set-up, since I sold my Buescher and now own a Couf... Mmm...

OK, with that said, I just got my "new" horn in May, and then at the end of June I had to have emergency surgery which prevents me from playing anything--or engaging my core muscles--for 6 weeks. Two weeks to go... Almost there... Sigh...

So about MP/reed combos...

I have traditionally used a Runyon bari MP that was customized specifically for bass sax. For reeds I play synthetics on all my horns. For bass I am using Harry Hartmann's Onyx Baritone Fiberreed in M.

I did order some new ones from Harry, including the Copper Carbon Classic to see how it would play on bass.

My new bass came with a brand new Vandoren bass sax MP that does require real bass reeds. For that I did also order a Bass Reed from Harry as well. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to pick it up from work due to my medical leave. Therefore I can't give you any details on what it's like yet.

Harry's reeds are available directly through the US. You can get them directly through Fiberreed USA (currently the site is down for an major update), or through The Wedge Distribution.
 
Here's wishing you a speedy recovery @Helen. Can't wait to hear your impressions of the other reeds when you're back in the saddle.

I also play one of Paul's refaced Runyons and love it. I'll give the Hartman reed a try. Thanks for the links.

I'd also be interested in your experience with the Vandoren bass mouthpiece. I tried one of those as well, but did not care for it at all. I expected better response, better intonation and deeper timbre, which it did not deliver.

@pete, My concern about a Rascher or similar is it will be too closed for the type of music I play. But if I were going for a classical, string-like sound, the Rascher would probably be perfect. Did you play classical on it all those years ago?
 
I never had a chance to try the Vandoren MP on the Buescher, since the True Tone was sold before I got the Couf. That said, even from trying the Vandoren on the Couf with the under-sized bari reeds I do have, it feels and sounds like it will be THE mouthpiece for the Couf.

I have spoken with other JK bass players, and many of the them use a Vandoren MP. For them, it is the MP of choice for their horns. Provides the best intonation and response.

Given that JK basses are known for their 100% accurate intonation, I can see why any MP that gets you to that point would be the go-to piece. The Runyon comes close, but it is off a bit on a couple of notes. I am usually about 20 to 40 cents sharp on a few notes, and have to consciously lip those down. The notes on the JK that are most sharp are the palm keys.

The tone that the Vandoren provides on the Couf definitely has less "oomph" than the Runyon. But again, this is based on using under-sized reeds. Once I get to try the bass sax reeds, I'll be in a better position to definitively know what's what.
 
Well, I tried the Hartman Onyx. I'm not crazy about it, but I'll try to get used to it. It has the typical uber-springiness of a synthetic and get's a bit thin and buzzy the higher I go. But it does have a decent sound on the low end, nice and deep. Vamp on the bari reed seems too short for bass, and the strength is a bit too soft for me.

I'll also give it a try on my bari which has a far bigger tip than my bass and see how it compares to the Legere I normally play on it.

I'll be interest to hear how it compares to the Hartman Bass reed and the Copper Carbon.
 
BarrySachs said:
@pete, My concern about a Rascher or similar is it will be too closed for the type of music I play. But if I were going for a classical, string-like sound, the Rascher would probably be perfect. Did you play classical on it all those years ago?
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Sort-of. A sax quartet and a mixed woodwinds xtet. I only borrowed the bass for a month or two. I'd call those ensembles classical-ish.

My teacher wanted me to use Rascher mouthpieces for everything. The #1 reason was because I was going to college for music ed and that meant I would have my teacher's teacher, who was an original student of Sigurd Rascher (said teacher and teacher's teacher preferred Mark VIs over Rascher's Bueschers, though). I did switch to a hard rubber Berg Larsen for jazz ensemble(s) because it was much easier to use. At the time, I was also using (IIRC) 3.5 / medium hard Vandoren and/or Rico reeds on alto, Bb and C tenor, and bari.
 
I officially give up on the Onyx. The more I play it, the worse it gets. I'm glad it works for you @Helen, but it's not even in the same ballpark as my cane reeds or even the Legere contrabass clarinet I had tried a while back. It's a shame because I'd really hoped it would work. I am glad I tried it and thank you for sharing your experience.
 
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