Buying a Used Sax: Top 10 things to check

[pete]

No. There is no bottom line. People just want to think there is. This is basically an area where most of what is repeated over and over on the internet is completely irrational.

[admin_hat=ON]

(Even though this Administrator is on 3 different class 5 narcotics, it's still probably unwise to call him "irrational". Or any of the other folks who disagree with your opinion. Name-calling isn't tolerated on this forum. Be nice.)

[/admin_hat]

You tap-danced around my questions: "Would you, personally, buy a relacquered horn if you couldn't playtest it?" and "If you know it's a relacquered horn, would you pay the same price as a non-relacquer in the same condition?" I'd like your answers. Don't equivocate: I'm not voting for you .

Where are MOST people going to buy a vintage horn? Online. That also means MOST people won't be able to playtest the horn. While I think that's it's nuts not to playtest a horn, a lot of people WILL go out and buy a shiny on eBay because it's shinier than the bare-brass Conn Transitional alto sitting for sale in their local music shop, even if the one in the shop is a better horn.

I also don't care about value, but someone else MIGHT. If you tell someone, "Hey, if you playtest it and it's a great horn, even if it is a relac, you should buy it!" you're missing the, "Expect to get 30% less (or even less) than a comparable original horn if you ever decide to turn around and sell it."

There is this idea that you can feel safer about a horn that appears to be original finish, the underlying rationale (the truly reasonable rationale) being that you can see repairs better because are less likely to have been covered up by refinishing processes.

This is the first time I've ever heard that from anyone. The reason I wouldn't -- and I was under the assumption that most people wouldn't -- want a relacquer is because that if the horn is MECHANICALLY delacquered, you can strip metal and damage tone holes and that causes intonation and playability problems. Not to mention that it wipes out the engraving. I've said that more than once, so it's not like I've gone in a different direction all-of-the-sudden. And I've seen more than one person mention exactly that.

I think that it COULD be easier to see evidence of solder repairs on an original or stripped horn, but most really bad solder repairs I've seen are ... really bad and no amount of lacquer's gonna hide that. What other repairs could be covered up? Welding the bell back together? Hiding bullet holes (don't ask me how I know)? Bad dents inexpertly massaged out? True ... but that, I think makes the argument against getting a relacquer stronger, not weaker.

You're trying to tie "repair" into "relacquer" and those are two separate subjects. Yes, it's POSSIBLE that a relac has been repaired/overhauled/whatevered, but ... maybe it hasn't. I've seen a lot of "this horn was refinished 20+ years ago!" ads.

Additionally, relacquered also takes away from the ORIGINALITY of the instrument, especially when there's an abomination like a Conn-O-Sax qith lacquer body and nickel keywork. Ewww. Even Quinn wouldn't post the horn for $50K. (I seem to remember that particular horn selling for around $10K, which was the lowest price I've seen for a Conn-O-Sax.)

 

[clarnibass]

No schmoe for sure, but I hope you understand that I will not add a name. Anyway, I could be wrong (a remote possibility ), but given my experiences, I would not recommend buying a horn with roos unless one can try first. Admittedly, I haven't tried white ones.

Can you please explain the technical reason why Roopads would develop leaks after shipping that other pads wouldn't? What exactly happens to the pads in shipping that wouldn't happen with other pads?

Roo pads just have a different leather which is a very small part of the difference between different pads. Some non-roo pads are completely different from each other.

There are several reason a saxophone can have leaks after shipping.
1. Keys got slightly bent.
2. Pads were installed clamping and released just before shipping. By the time the instrument arrives the felt recovers and create leaks.
3. Pads were clamped in shipping. After releasing the keys the felt can recover very fast sometimes and you will have leaks shortly after.
4. Pads were installed in a way that is not reliable and would not have a lasting adjustment anyway, which happened to happen during shipping.

None of these reasons will happen with Roopads but not with other pads.

 

[clarnibass]

The question comes down to, "Would you, personally, buy a relacquered horn if you couldn't playtest it?" A secondary question would be, "If you know it's a relacquered horn, would you pay the same price as a non-relacquer in the same condition?"

My answer for both is "no". The market also answers "no" to the second question.

To me it seems the answers to those questions are a little distorted on internet forums, where many members (especially louder ones) constantly buy and sell saxophones and are interested in details like these. In seems in reality this is actually a small minority, but most don't bother speaking on forums.

I can answer these questions from what I see in reality, although I guess it's possible to be a difference in culture. For the first question, generally no, but that is mainly because most people (I'd say about 95% and probably more) wouldn't buy ANY saxophone without play testing first. Whether it was relacquered wouldn't even be an issue to consider since they would play it before buying anyway. Advanced/professional/high level/etc. players would try what they can and buy what they prefer. Beginners might just have their teacher try or find a saxophone for them.

For the second question, I'd say most would. Someone tries many instruments and the one they prefer happens to be relacquered. They would usually pay as much as they are willing to pay for a sax they want and being relacqered would normally make little difference.

Statistics-wise I can say that almost all original finish "vintage" saxophones I've seen had a terrible mechanical condition. I definitely wouldn't trust a "vintage" sax to be decent because it's original and photos definitely are not very helpful to see some of the main problems.

 

[AGaston]

you may have a good point there about original finish being full of problems mechanically while a relac might represent a total overhaul & play like a dream; I thought about that. I wonder if the Mark VI with all it's hype about original finish has sort of brain-washed us, that & influence from collectors who drive up the market by bidding up the original horns?

 

[Gandalfe]

Re keywork: I have never seen even a very pristine original vintage Conn, for example, where the keywork was remotely tight, or hinted that it ever might have been. I think they did not leave the factory with the keywork being very snugged up. It could be also that their metal is more prone to wear quickly, but I suspect they were pretty clicky, with loose stacks, when they were in stores, new.

Bueschers seem to have been manufactured with more care in terms of the keytubes themselves and how they were likely set-up at the factory. IMO, the Buescher 400 line has some of the most solid "build quality" and durability of all the vintage saxophones. This is fresh on my mind because I overhauled a TH&C recently. They are made/designed/manufactured in very sensible, solid ways.

But with Conn (6M, 10M, 12M, etc.), I don't think you ever encounter a pre-contemporary one that has ever been mechanically tight until it has been overhauled.

Spoken like a true tech and vintage connoisseur. Still I really don't appreciate the old-style ergonomics, or lack there of. My recommendations go to instruments with modern keyworks.

 

[steen]

What exactly happens to the pads in shipping that wouldn't happen with other pads?

I don't believe I stated anything to that effect.

Can you please explain the technical reason why Roopads would develop leaks after shipping that other pads wouldn't?

You are a tech and I am an amateur, so you will run circles around me. However, what seems reasonable to me is that a stiff pad that makes a very slight impression on the tone hole will be less forgiving in adjustment, than a softer pad that seats deeper. So if the the black roos are stiffer, it would make sense that they develop leaks easier if the horn is in less than perfect adjustment after shipping.

 

[Helen]

That's very personal -- related to set-up, also (imo). You can move things around and goose them so that the ergos improve for each person.

+1 Well put JSnola.

When Sarge rebuilt the 1950 Zephyr tenor that I bought from him, he did an amazing job. It is as easy to play (easier in fact) than my Mark VI. I think he might have set it up especially to accommodate the neurological deficits in my fingers. The spring action is amazing. Everyone who plays it is blown away by this sax because it almost plays itself across the whole range, and especially through the left pinkie table.

Just for fun Jim, you should go and play one of the Zephs that Sarge has in stock. I think he just finished restoring the twin to the one I have. It is the "pretty" one... The one with all its lacquer. It too came from 1950, but didn't have the resonance & projection that this "ugly ducking" delacquered one had. (At least in side by side comparisons when the horns were unrestored & almost unplayable in that their lower ends were leaking very badly.) I'm sure that it will now have a killer sound too. Check out it, but more importantly, check out the ergos. Since you too are used to a Selmer, I think you, like me, will be surprised.

 

[Gandalfe]

Just for fun Jim, you should go and play one of the Zephs that Sarge has in stock.

With the purchase of a Epplesheim & Reese C soprano sax last year I exceeded my budget (six horns total that year) by 2000 percent. I still owe half upon delivery of the C sop. I don't think I'll be buying instruments this year. Still I could give it a blow. But my Selmer Ref 36 is as good as it gets.

 

[pete]

Mmm. Looks like Jsnola had a bit of fun, here. I'll try to clean it up later, if anyone's overwhelmingly interested.

 

[pete]

Look, Ma, I can revert threads. Back to the discussion, already in progress.

 

[Helen]

With the purchase of a Epplesheim & Reese C soprano sax last year I exceeded my budget (six horns total that year) by 2000 percent. I still owe half upon delivery of the C sop. I don't think I'll be buying instruments this year. Still I could give it a blow. But my Selmer Ref 36 is as good as it gets.

I wasn't suggesting you buy it Jim. I just thought as an experiment you give it a try. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

BTW, I agree with with your assessment of your 36... It is a very nice horn. I loved that sax. But for pure balls to the wall (the kind of music I get paid to play) my Zeph will mop the floor with the 36. If I however had to replace my VI for any reason, a 36 like yours set up by Kessler would be a serious contender.

 

[pete]

For the second question (i.e. "If you know it's a relacquered horn, would you pay the same price as a non-relacquer in the same condition?"), I'd say most would.

Interesting. Just to confirm: if you have two horns in exactly the same condition, you would pay the same amount for either, regardless of whether one was relacquered or not.

It's interesting to me because, not only does the market disagree with you to an average of about 30% of horn value, I would have thought you'd say, as a tech, "Original? I can work more with that."

Maybe I'll poll the question, sometime.

===========

> Keywork
I don't know exactly where to begin an end on the discussion of keywork.

For a lot of vintage saxophones, you only have one "major" key that's missing: an articulated G# (and, primarily for us bari players, chromatic F# keys or keyed range only up to Eb). After that, you just have to worry about the layout of the keywork.

As to keywork design, I can talk about how the G# cluster on some Martin Magnas is junk (that far right pearl) or that I've got a pinky that's been broken twice and I physically can't push the G# cluster (without difficulty) on the Buescher Aristocrat/400 horns.

However, I think it's a bit more opinion than anything. While I do think that the keywork layout of the Mark VI design is probably the best, especially in its improvements on later Yamahas, it might just be "best for me". Then again, I've never played enough on my non-modern horns to get significant wrist strain -- although playing a Bundy comes awfully close.

I don't think anyone's really done a study of players doubling. I've played a few multi-instrument gigs and I've generally not had matching makes/models. It MIGHT be better to have all Yamaha Custom saxophones, or something like that, just because the feel will be consistent. I dunno.

 

[clarnibass]

I don't believe I stated anything to that effect.

You mentioned the problem specifically with roopads, so this suggests it doesn't happen at least with some non-roo pads. Otherwise it would simply be for all pads and roo pads are never mentioned specifically.

So if the the black roos are stiffer, it would make sense that they develop leaks easier if the horn is in less than perfect adjustment after shipping.

Let's say that's true. In that case it is hard pads that would be a problem in that situation, not roo pads. The roo pads you have tried maybe happened to be hard. I've tried both black and white roo pads, and the hardest pads I've seen or tried were regular leather pads, not roo. But realistically if keys get bend and move during shipping that almost any good and accurate adjustment would need to be re-adjusted with any good normal pads (although I found that many saxophones don't need re-adjusting after shipping because keys are not bent, etc.).

 

[clarnibass]

Interesting. Just to confirm: if you have two horns in exactly the same condition, you would pay the same amount for either, regardless of whether one was relacquered or not.

That's a bit tricky and unrealistic and is not a simple yes/no question.

In this imaginary theoretical situation, do we say they play exactly the same too and the ONLY difference is the relacuqer? In that case, does the engraving look better on the original? If it does, maybe I would prefer the original if they had the same price. Or maybe the relacquered one looks "better"? Though to me an older looking sax doesn't look worse. If they had an identical condition, played exactly the same, looked the same and both just happen to be the saxophone I want (after play testing) then I would get the cheaper one. If they also cost the same... I would get the original because that's the only thing I have to have a difference between them... or I could decide by a coin toss.

A more realistic situation is where the instruments don't sound and feel exactly the same and probably are not in identical condition. In this situation I would simply judge each of them by itself and decide which I like better and if I'm willing to pay that price for that instrument, regardless of whether it was relacquered or not.

 

[steen]

You mentioned the problem specifically with roopads, so this suggests it doesn't happen at least with some non-roo pads. Otherwise it would simply be for all pads and roo pads are never mentioned specifically.

This is pointless. I never stated what you are implying.

Let's say that's true. In that case it is hard pads that would be a problem in that situation, not roo pads.

OK, hard pads are a problem.

 

[pete]

This is pointless. I never stated what you are implying.

[admin_hat=ON]
steen, I think you're trying to take offense where none was given. The entire thing has been based on your comment (12/8/09, 4:29p): "Roopads - even if they seal prior to shipping (assuming this is necessary), they are prone to leaks that occur in transit. I am basing this on experiences with sellers whose word I trust."

Based on other posts I've seen from clarnibass, he may have left out one or more words in his response and that's the issue. However, I also note that he's from Israel, so I mention the "non-English-speaker" clause in addition to the "don't take offense" clause.

In any event, a summary of the questions/posts to you have been, "I have not seen any problems with Roo pads. I've not heard any other techs have issues with them. There are, however, other things that can cause a sax to leak. Maybe these were the problems, not the Roo pads. What do you think?"

Please continue in that vein.
[/admin_hat]

 

[pete]

I would get the original because that's the only thing I have to have a difference between them... or I could decide by a coin toss.

That's a contradiction: the "I could decide by coin toss" means "there's no difference" and "I would get the original" means "there's something about the original that's better".



===============

OK, getting more realistic, you're going to talk about mechanical and finish condition. That's a lot harder to do. Let me flesh out an example:

1. Start. You have a horn.
2. Evaluate mechanical condition. Call it a 6 out of 10. (It doesn't really matter HOW you define the 10 scale for this example, just as long as you have a scale.)
3. Evaluate finish condition. Call it a 7 out of 10. (See my comments about the scale, above.)

Now, at this point, you should say "relacquer" or not. If it's a relacquer, would you then say, "It's a 7. Stop here"? Or say, "It's a bad relacquer. Let me downgrade my assessment to a 3"? Or even say, "It's a relacquer, thus a relacquer that's a 7 isn't as good as an original that's a 7, thus I should make sure the seller's not charging as much as an original"?

Variables. Too many variables. Eliminating variables is good.

 

[steen]

[admin_hat=ON]
steen, I think you're trying to take offense where none was given. The entire thing has been based on your comment (12/8/09, 4:29p): "Roopads - even if they seal prior to shipping (assuming this is necessary), they are prone to leaks that occur in transit. I am basing this on experiences with sellers whose word I trust."

Based on other posts I've seen from clarnibass, he may have left out one or more words in his response and that's the issue. However, I also note that he's from Israel, so I mention the "non-English-speaker" clause in addition to the "don't take offense" clause.

In any event, a summary of the questions/posts to you have been, "I have not seen any problems with Roo pads. I've not heard any other techs have issues with them. There are, however, other things that can cause a sax to leak. Maybe these were the problems, not the Roo pads. What do you think?"

Please continue in that vein.
[/admin_hat]

Pete (and Nitai):

Not sure whether to write a PM, but since you put it in the thread I will respond here.

I didn't feel offended. I seem to have stepped on some toes by commenting on roo pads, where I have no hidden agenda, other than frustration with a couple of leaky saxes. If you read Nitai's prior post, it is pretty darn direct (not saying abrasive but direct), which you seem to gloss over (...if you dish it out, you have to be able to take it as well). I think it is OK for me not wishing to get into a discussion about what I stated. Perhaps I should have written that a horn outfitted with roo pads is more prone to leaks occurring upon shipping but c'mon, we are not here to dissect sentences in the way I am all too used to from my career in science.

I deferred to Nitai on the fact that he is an expert and I am not. I have no problems admitting that I am wrong about something if properly convinced, roo pads included. However, then there are well-respected techs out there who are wrong as well, which contributed to how I formed an opinion about them. If it the issue is hardness of pads rather than the origin of the leather per se, then I am perfectly happy to stand corrected.

For the record, I have read a LOAD of Nitai's posts both here and on SOTW and learned a lot from them and am GREATLY appreciative of his generous sharing of expertise.

I think it is a tempest in a teapot. You obviously can (and likely will) delete what you don't like but please the compliments in place, since there was no intention whatsoever to offend Nitai.

Best,
Steen

 

[Carl H.]

I've had 4 saxes (SATT) set up with white Roo in NYC and shipped to me in IA/MN. Not a one of them had any issues upon arrival. The only adjustment needed was when one of them (T) took a hit and needed some attention. It was shipped to NY and shipped back - in fine condition.

That's 5 times Roo have arrived in great shape. 100% happy so far.

 

[clarnibass]

Pete: I think I should have said "maybe I would get the original..." but anyway to clarify, if there was no difference except the fact that one sax was relacquered then there was no way to choose other than that fact. In this case I don't know what I would choose, which is why I might choose the original or maybe do a coin toss. However that situation is pretty much impossible to happen and any other difference would come before that (i.e. tone, condition, intonation, etc.) making it almost absurd to even consider it.

Steen: I didn't mean to offend and sorry if I have. I wasn't offended by you. My point was in response to your claim that Pete quoted: "Roopads - even if they seal prior to shipping (assuming this is necessary), they are prone to leaks that occur in transit."

This claim is a completely technical issue that can be analyzed and I was trying to get to the cause of this, if it was true. I think this is a good idea to do always when someone is making a claim like this. Even if it strue, it seems that the reasons are not specific to roopads, so I thought it was worth explaining that.

By the way I have no biased reason to defend roo pads. I've tried both black and white roo pads and have seen several saxophones repadded with them, but I prefer the pads I normally use which don't have kangaroo leather which I like better than the roo pads.