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Carl Ludwig tenor sax

I'd appreciate any information from members of this forum about a re-padded Carl Ludwig tenor saxophone in my possession. It was made in Western Germany and has the serial number 13316.

I also have a silver plated Armstrong alto flute, serial number 6-5272, which I believe may be a Heritage Model 703. Any information about this instrument would also be appreciated. The flute has a hard case, straight head, and C foot.

I intend to sell both instruments if they are worth anything, otherwise I will keep them for my children.
 

Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
Yes, photos would be helpful. Your sax is likely a D&J based on the serial #, but without pics... My opinion is at best a guess.
 
Ludwig is a grade-A manufacturer of drums and percussion instruments, but they never to my knowledge ever manufactured woodwind instruments. It is an obvious stencil (ie, someone else manufactured it and slapped Ludwig's name on it).

Stencils are never as valuable as the manufacturer's counterpart, even if they are mechanically identical (and a lot of time, they aren't aren't). Hellen says its a Dorfler & Jorka , which is an obscure brand without a whole lot of value in the used markets.

These types of instruments really are not worth any more that old student horns in comparable condition are, such as the old Bundy or Bundy II, and possibly even less even if they do have pretty engraving and all. At least the Bundy's are known factors and still might be on those lists band teachers send out to parents recommending instruments to purchase. There is no way a D&J is unless the instructor is weirdly prescient in these matters.

You say its re-padded? If done well and the cosmetics are in good condition, which could be likely since from what I gather this class of instruments were bought by people who wouldn't go on to use them much, kinda like that Rogue 090 you bought six years ago and just "haven't gotten time to figure out how to play" [but always meant to] that will sit in your closet until the day your next-of-kin goes on a guitar forum asking "what is it worth"?

Here is my opinion: its probably worth $500-$550 in a private sale, working its way downwards if it has scratches, dents, signs of wear, or needs servicing. Even then it might be a tough sale if it has to compete with Yamahas, Conns, and Bueschers/Bundy's priced similarly in the market.
 

Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
....Stencils are never as valuable as the manufacturer's counterpart, even if they are mechanically identical (and a lot of time, they aren't aren't). Hellen says its a Dorfler & Jorka , which is an obscure brand without a whole lot of value in the used markets.
Actually, D& J is not an obscure brand. They are a well-known, vintage saxophone maker from Germany who had very close ties to Keilwerth back in its day.
ALL of D&J's horns were stencils. That's all they made. There was virtually no variation from horn to horn, from stencil name to stencil name. Furthermore, they were nearly identical to Keilwerth's The New King and Toneking--which is why JK went to court in what is one of the first court cases re: saxophone copying. (All of this is explained in great detail on the
D&J page of my website.)

D&J horns really are "sleeper" saxes. They sound identical to JKs--since they copied the JK body tube--but have slightly different (read slightly less ergonomically friendly) key work. Personally, I always found the right thumb rest quite uncomfortable compared to that on my Series III Toneking.


One last point about this, most vintage European stencil saxophones, are most assuredly identical to the name brand they are stenciled after. The idea of older models, body styles, "lesser" horns, what have you, being used for stencils, is something that is almost 100% solely an American phenomena.
These types of instruments really are not worth any more that old student horns in comparable condition are, such as the old Bundy or Bundy II, and possibly even less even if they do have pretty engraving and all. At least the Bundy's are known factors and still might be on those lists band teachers send out to parents recommending instruments to purchase. There is no way a D&J is unless the instructor is weirdly prescient in these matters.
So you're saying a Bundy or a Bundy II is in some way "better" than a D&J, or more valuable? Based on what exactly? Have you played one? Owned one? Worked on one in a repair shop--a professional repair shop I am talking about here--so that you can properly compare it to a Bundy or Bundy II that you have worked on? Have you compared prices?

Maybe I'm wrong, but if a student has an instrument, can they not use it in band class? Do they really have rent something that the teacher "approves" of? Does that really go on?

I work in a shop that does school rental to the largest school district in British Columbia. It is not something I have ever heard of. Parents will sometimes come in and rent something b/c they have an expensive horn--maybe a Selmer SBA or VI--from a family member, and they don't want their kid to take it to school, but those are the only situations I personally have come across where a privately-owned horn is replaced for school use.

.....

Here is my opinion: its probably worth $500-$550 in a private sale, working its way downwards if it has scratches, dents, signs of wear, or needs servicing. Even then it might be a tough sale if it has to compete with Yamahas, Conns, and Bueschers/Bundy's priced similarly in the market.

Without detailed photos, we cannot properly discuss what the horn might sell for. I just sold my D&J tenor. It sold for more than $550. It was not repadded. Just saying...

I am going to have to step in here and correct some things that are just flat-out incorrect.

They appear in another colour.
 
Hi Helen,

Thanks for chiming in and I apologize if was the source of any misinformation or consternation..... Its good to see a flurry of details on the D&J horns get posted, even if it is at the expense of me being taken down a peg and looking a little like a doofus. :)

There is no question you know more about these than I do. When I was referencing material for this, your blog is the first meaningful hit to come up about this. You are probably as big of expert as can be readily sourced on these instruments.

However, let me clarify my position.

*Obscurity : I had heard of D&J horns before, but didn't know that much about them, I don't think many people in our enthusiast "realm" even really do, do they? I call them "obscure" in this case given the likelihood that someone randomly dialing into this website asking for a value may have at least have heard of the list of the usual names of horns that trade on eBay, at least after their own research. I personally didn't know D&J were dedicated stencil makers. To me, that seems to make them especially "obscure" if they only operate behind the mask of brands that source from them.
 
sorry, here is the full message, I hit post too early....


Hi Helen,

Thanks for chiming in and I apologize if was the source of any misinformation or consternation..... Its good to see a flurry of details on the D&J horns get posted, even if it is at the expense of me being taken down a peg and looking a little like a doofus. :)

There is no question you know more about these than I do. When I was referencing material for this, your blog is the first meaningful hit to come up about this. You are probably as big of expert as can be readily sourced on these instruments.

However, let me clarify my position, even if its still wrong.

*Obscurity : I had heard of D&J horns before, but didn't know that much about them, I don't think many people in our enthusiast "realm" even really do, do they? I call them "obscure" in this case given the likelihood that someone randomly dialing into this website asking for a value may have at least have heard of the list of the usual names of horns that trade on eBay, at least after their own research. I personally didn't know D&J were dedicated stencil makers. To me, that seems to make them especially "obscure" if they only operate behind the mask of brands that source from them. I'm actually curious, with someone having your level of knowledge, what sort of makes to you would be "obscure"?

*Comparison to Bundies.: Wasn't my intention to compare them as performers or mechanically, only as a baseline for perceived value. I've worked on a number of Bundy saxophones and my opinions on these are mixed, at best. These however are well known instruments that come up for sale often and readily. With instruments, not being a well-known make seems to work against things as far as value is concerned, at least from what I've noticed watching auctions over the years, even if they are great instruments. "Sleepers" as you put it.

Also, it has been my observation personal ads and personal auctions generate the lower returns on instruments compared to selling them at retail or from the hands of a well known repairer. As an example, I have a Yanagisawa that if I were to sell, eBay indicates I might get $1200 - $1400 out of it. If it were listed in the same condition at Tenormadness, Pmwoodind, junkdude, saxquest, i'm pretty sure they would ask for something around two grand. Is it possible you getting that return on your D&J horn based on your reputation as a seller as well as your ability to share knowledge of the instrument?

*Approved lists: Apparently, this does go on, though I confess, I don't know how widespread it is. I've seen such lists, even from schools around here. They make sense given that the first thing parents would logically want would to know is what they should show up with, and I'm sure schools are motivated to make sure students don't sure show up with something irredeemably subpar. I was working under the assumption that a D&J would default to the same category as the things people call "ISOs".

Sorry Helen, I'll try to be either clearer or better in the information I provide...
 
Many thanks, particularly Helen and JfW, for information and your opinions on my Carl Ludwig tenor sax, which appears identical to the one in photographs on Helen's Woodwind website. It has several mouthpieces, including a Vandoran of Paris "Soul" 99. The sax has had little use since re-padding and appears to me (a rank amateur) to play well. I think I'll keep it for my kids.
 

Helen

Content Expert Saxophones
Staff member
Administrator
<snip>

There is no question you know more about these than I do. When I was referencing material for this, your blog is the first meaningful hit to come up about this. You are probably as big of expert as can be readily sourced on these instruments.
Hope you were looking on my website, as well as my blog. Related but separate. The blog does have some D&J stuff as well--it has a series of articles on the D&J horns--but the actual research is on my website, and what I linked to in my previous post.
However, let me clarify my position, even if its still wrong.

*Obscurity : I had heard of D&J horns before, but didn't know that much about them, I don't think many people in our enthusiast "realm" even really do, do they? I call them "obscure" in this case given the likelihood that someone randomly dialing into this website asking for a value may have at least have heard of the list of the usual names of horns that trade on eBay, at least after their own research. I personally didn't know D&J were dedicated stencil makers. To me, that seems to make them especially "obscure" if they only operate behind the mask of brands that source from them. I'm actually curious, with someone having your level of knowledge, what sort of makes to you would be "obscure"?
North Americans are very restricted in their knowledge about brands of anything not manufactured in North America. There are a lot of reasons for these. Language is part of the reason. For example, let's stick to German for a moment since we're talking about German horns. Germans are far more likely to be able to speak, read and write English, than North Americans are to be able to speak, read and write German.

Now pick a saxophone brand from Germany of your choosing: D&J, Hohner, Hammerschmidt, JK, Kohlert, Max Keilwerth, Franz Köhler, et. al. German saxophone historians know as much about these brands as Dr. Paul Cohen knows about say Conn, Martin, et al. The difference is, German saxophone historians publish their materials in the German language, in books, music journals, etc. Some historians, who are part of the musical instrument museum staff in Markneukirchen, have access to the original records, from the original companies that got folded into B&S in 1953 when they were all nationalized.

D&J horns were made in the 50s & 60s. That was not that long ago, and they made A LOT of saxophones in what was then West Germany. The were directly linked with the Julius Keilwerth company. Some very popular saxophone that people buy these days that were stencilled by JK--like the German-made Bundy & Bundy Special horns--were in fact made by D&J.

None of this is obscure information. It is known in Germany. The difference is that people from North America can't read, or didn't haven't access to the documents, so had no clue about brand X.

This is how I got involved with German saxophone Uwe Ladwig: I ended up getting connected with him through someone who contacted me through my website. This fellow had a Hammerschmidt tenor that Uwe restored. At the time I was looking for info on a Hüttl alto I had. Uwe and I connected. He sent me his published research--in German--with permission to translate into English. Over the years our relationship has developed, and he has shared a great deal of research with me, I have researched things further, shared my new data with him, and so on, and so on. I have permission to translate Uwe's work, and you will see that acknowledgment on the bottom of every page on which I use his materials.

Over the years our goal has been to clear up some misconceptions that exist--on English language-based sax sites--and to allow English language audiences the same access to information about the more popular, vintage German saxophone brands, as German audiences have.

So to clarify, D&J is by no means obscure, but the Eugen Schuster brand I just published a page about this week, most certainly is.

*Comparison to Bundies.: Wasn't my intention to compare them as performers or mechanically, only as a baseline for perceived value. I've worked on a number of Bundy saxophones and my opinions on these are mixed, at best. These however are well known instruments that come up for sale often and readily. With instruments, not being a well-known make seems to work against things as far as value is concerned, at least from what I've noticed watching auctions over the years, even if they are great instruments. "Sleepers" as you put it.
Well comparing a Bundy to a D&J is not a fair comparison. A Bundy is a student horn. A D&J is not. Well known or not, a D&J is not a student model instrument. Here is an ad from 1963, in which the Rene Dumont saxophone is aimed at intermediate players.

I haven't been able to find a price list for JK horns that is close in vintage, or even Max's Hohners. That would give us a good idea how D&J horns were priced overall in comparison to their well known, pro-level cousins.

Since I am not a tech, a can't tell you the difference between the build quality on the D&J and Toneking Series III it was modelled after. I can tell you though, my D&J tenor held up just as well as my JK to playing, car trips, bumps, etc. etc. Kept its regulation over time as well as any German pro model horn I own in similar condition (read: unrestored).


Also, it has been my observation personal ads and personal auctions generate the lower returns on instruments compared to selling them at retail or from the hands of a well known repairer. As an example, I have a Yanagisawa that if I were to sell, eBay indicates I might get $1200 - $1400 out of it. If it were listed in the same condition at Tenormadness, Pmwoodind, junkdude, saxquest, i'm pretty sure they would ask for something around two grand. Is it possible you getting that return on your D&J horn based on your reputation as a seller as well as your ability to share knowledge of the instrument?
Of course retail shops will get more $$ than a private seller. They put time and money into every horn they sell. They have overhead as well, plus they need to turn a profit at the end of every month.

As for me, I don't have a reputation as a seller--since I generally don't sell. As a matter of fact, that's my problem. :) That being said, the person who bought my D&J bought it through my site when I wrote an article about a few horns I did list for sale. He had previously owned a D&J tenor, and regretted selling it.


*Approved lists: Apparently, this does go on, though I confess, I don't know how widespread it is. I've seen such lists, even from schools around here. They make sense given that the first thing parents would logically want would to know is what they should show up with, and I'm sure schools are motivated to make sure students don't sure show up with something irredeemably subpar. I was working under the assumption that a D&J would default to the same category as the things people call "ISOs".
Well, a $150 new alto from eBay is a POS, so that's likely what schools are trying to prevent.

Around here, parents are given a list with the 2 stores that do rentals, and a link to our online shop. From there, parents can shop around.

We are a Selmer & Buffet dealer, so our student horns are mostly student model Selmers, Buffets, with a couple of Gemeinhardt Alphas thrown into the mix. The other shop who is the big go-to place, is a Yamaha dealer, so between the 2 of us, we have all the student model brands of note covered.


Sorry Helen, I'll try to be either clearer or better in the information I provide...

No need to apologize. My job here is to make sure the info is accurate. I was just doing that. ;)
 
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