Effect of finish on Mark VI Tenor resale value

jbtsax

jbtsax

Distinguished Member
Distinguished Member
l am currently doing a complete overhaul on a customer's Mark VI tenor. Since it has only about 30% of the original lacquer remaining, I have given him the option of removing the remaining lacquer and giving it a brushed finish. I have used the same techniques on another Mark VI before and it came out very nice.

His question to me which I did not know the answer was "How will that effect the resale price of the instrument"? If anyone has any experience or ideas I would appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

John
 
jbtsax said:
"How will that effect the resale price of the instrument"?
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Negatively to a substantial degree. Don't ask me to rationalize it because I can't. Personally, if you use a chem-strip before the brush finish, I would prefer that option, but it doesn't apply to the market.
 
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I agree with Steen, based on what I've seen playing with eBay for the past 10 or so years.

Relacquer = stripped metal = possibly really bad. A lot of people won't look at a relacquer. A replated horn is something different.

If the customer doesn't care about how it looks, I'd leave it as-is. If he wants it to look pretty and increase the resale, I'd contact http://www.andersonsilverplating.com/ and get a quote.
 
I dunno . . . the "market is only known after the sale, in my view. You may find six potential buyers who would walk away from the horn solely because of the finish being removed, then the seventh comes along and 1) he/she doesn't care, 2) he wants a MKVI, and 3) he can afford it. Talk is cheap in these matters.

I'd say set a fair price for it and disregard any criticism of the finish issues. I'll bet that someone will come along who wants the horn and will pay your price (or close to it). The same thing is true in a lot of sales . . . houses, cars, guns, saxophones, etc. You gotta price it right and find a buyer. Not being in a rush will most likely beget a better sales price. DAVE
 
I look at it this way. Stereotypically, existing musicians "in the know" will devalue the instrument if you strip the lacquer off and change the finish.

New and upcoming musicans may value it a bit more as it looks prettier ... everyone likes a new looking horn.

Resale value also depends on where it is being resold.

eBay = negative value

a retail shop like yours John should be able to support the strip/brush effect and get more than eBay ever would.

but it all depends if he is going to sell it or just play it, and how he values the finish of the horn. Would he would lose money selling on consignment in a retail shop versus ebay sales minus fees. if he's in a hurry to sell at some point you get money faster via eBay versus sitting on display for xx time in a retail setting.

It basically comes down to what he wants. Is he going to continue playing it, or is he going to resell it ?

personally, if I had the extra cash I would sell it and buy an SBA :)
otherwise leave it the way it is.
 
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Dave Dolson said:
I dunno . . . the "market is only known after the sale, in my view. You may find six potential buyers who would walk away from the horn solely because of the finish being removed, then the seventh comes along and 1) he/she doesn't care, 2) he wants a MKVI, and 3) he can afford it.
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Which is also true. I just think it's not quite as common, anymore. But someone did just plunk down $14K for a VI alto, so my faith in humanity has been crushed.

A thread where everyone can be right. I bask in the glow of this thread!

Again, I do think that if he wants to be *sure* to add value, a relacquer is out of the question. Replate. Unless, of course, he comes across the folks that think that silver-plated VIs are stuffy ....

BTB, is it a 5- or 6-digit serial number? I think that if it's a 5-digit, you'll probably get more value on eBay if everything is as original as possible, just because of the 5-digit-serial mystique.
 
Just to be clear, there is no buffing or relacquering involved. A strong paint remover is used to take off the remaining lacquer and then the body and keys are given a good wash with soft bristle brushes and soap and water.

The parts are then immersed in what is called Brite Dip which lightens the color of the brass back to its original color and gives it a more uniform finish. This is the same process used to "chem clean" the inside of brass instruments. Then the body and keys are lightly brushed with a scotch pad that is no more abrasive or aggressive than fine steel wool.

There is no metal removed by any of the chemicals used and the metal lost by giving the surface a brushed look is negligible. The result is the same unlacquered "raw brass" finish that is popular on some new models available today.

I'm not defending or promoting the finish. It is largely a matter of personal taste and preference. I just want to make it clear that it is not in the same category as buffing and relacquering in terms of what is done to the horn.

John
 
jbtsax said:
I just want to make it clear that it is not in the same category as buffing and relacquering in terms of what is done to the horn.
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And you understand that, and your customer understands that. But what does a future potential buyer understand? It will have that "has-been-refinished" cloud hanging over it. And even a savvy buyer who knows that what you've done does not effect the playability will take advantage of marketplace perception to get a better deal. Which, I think, addresses your original question. Which has been well answered by the experts here.

Knowing the opinions you've gathered here, I guess the best advice is tell your customer, "This procedure will make for a better-looking horn and will not change its playability at all. But it could make it less desireable to buyers if you should ever try to sell it. You decide."

The operative word being "could." Someday when the horn has a nice patina, I think the procedure could enhance the value. But the marketplace is fickle with many variables, so you won't know until you try to sell it. Inform your customer and do whatever he wants.
 
Thanks everyone for your feedback. Al especially gave a good summary of what most were saying and suggested an excellent way to say it to the customer. You guys are a great support staff (and the price is right too). :)


John
 
That looks really good John. What does the owner have to do to keep the finish looking like this now?
 
I find the silver cloths (available at fabric stores) is the way to go. There are two kinds, one for polishing and one for protection. I hear you can put a light coat of lacquer on the horn and would luv to know if this works.
 
Helen said:
That looks really good John. What does the owner have to do to keep the finish looking like this now?
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Here is the "rub" literally. :) The brass exposed to air will gradually develop a darker tone (patina) over time. It will do so gradually and evenly since all of the surface is exposed. There will not be the pitting that occurs when there are small patches of bare brass exposed through holes in the lacquer.

Some players opt for that look and do nothing but let the brass "age" gracefully.

If one wanted to keep that bright brass look they could lightly rub the exposed body sections and key cups with 0000 steel wool. This would slightly remove the brushed effect, but would re-brighten the brass. For the bell section that was buffed to a shine, the player could use Brasso or Miracle Cloth (my favorite) to restore the shine.

The player after a time could bring the sax in and have the keys removed and have the body and keycups undergo the scratch brush treatment again. The cost would be around $200 --- far less than a buffing and relacquering, or replating for that matter.

John
 
jbtsax said:
Here is the "rub" literally. :) The brass exposed to air will gradually develop a darker tone (patina) over time. It will do so gradually and evenly since all of the surface is exposed. There will not be the pitting that occurs when there are small patches of bare brass exposed through holes in the lacquer.

Some players opt for that look and do nothing but let the brass "age" gracefully.
John
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Do you happen to have any photos of any saxes you've treated like this that have aged? It would be interesting to see how they look after a few years. I'm a fan of the aged look, but I prefer the "natural" aged look, as opposed to the fake one like the one that Selmer used on the Reference 54s for example. That just looked wrong.
 
Helen said:
Do you happen to have any photos of any saxes you've treated like this that have aged? It would be interesting to see how they look after a few years. I'm a fan of the aged look, but I prefer the "natural" aged look, as opposed to the fake one like the one that Selmer used on the Reference 54s for example. That just looked wrong.
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Ask me again in a couple of years. :)



John
 
Helen said:
Do you happen to have any photos of any saxes you've treated like this that have aged? It would be interesting to see how they look after a few years. I'm a fan of the aged look, but I prefer the "natural" aged look, as opposed to the fake one like the one that Selmer used on the Reference 54s for example. That just looked wrong.
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I will try to post pics of my Jessen tenor, work permitting. It is bare brass and from 2006 and dark, dark.

jbtsax said:
Ask me again in a couple of years. :)

John
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I think 6 months will be sufficient for it to darken significantly. I would advise the customer in wiping down the instrument after use, nothing obsessively, and leave it at that. IMO, the tarnishing will be self limiting. Trying to keep it polished will be a Sisyphonian struggle. BTW, except for the slightly anemic look in its current state, that is one great looking sax. Thanks for sharing.

I agree that is a somewhat anemic pale look right now
 
I just skimmed the posts but I thought this might apply.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...084917&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_715wt_1167

These ebay posts get removed eventually so I've copied his description.
It went for $3000
Selmer Mark VI tenor, serial number 134xxx. I've owned this horn for about 30 years and have played it all over. It was my primary tenor until 2008. The horn has a beautiful VI sound and comes with a fresh repad with the metal "star" resonator pads. Overhaul was performed by West Valley Music. Good action throughout the keys and very free-blowing. To facilitate palm key dexterity I have added risers to the palm keys (cherry, see photos). If you would like to hear what the horn sounds like, please let me know and I'll send you some MP3's of recordings I've made with the horn, in big band, funk and quartet situations. I simply have too many saxophones, and I can't play them all.

In terms of condition, the horn has original lacquer, although much of the lacquer has worn off. The horn has no real issues with dents, etc. The neck has two minor dents that you can see in the picture. I have not had them removed, but any good repair shop can remove them. At the bottom of the main tube, there are some very, very minor dents (they wouldn't show in any picture that I took.). At the top of the main tube, the instrument did have a dent, which was removed and a post was resoldered.

I live in the San Francisco Bay area. If you would like to play the horn, we can make arrangements for you to play. In addition, if you would like to hear how your sound comes through to people listening to you, it's easy to record you playing.

Please feel free to ask any questions and I will promptly answer them.

The reserve has been set very low so that the auction can be exciting with many participants.

Good Luck, and Happy Bidding!

No international shipping, sorry.
 
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