Feels like my Embouchure is getting weaker, not stronger

[Stephen]

I've been playing sax for exactly 1 year. I think I'm improving generally, and have passed a Grade 2 exam with good results, I'm learning jazz and going straight to a grade 4 exam in the winter.

I started with 1 1/2 reeds, and worked up to 2's - and felt I was doing OK with them and I have been mainly playing 2's for a while, exclusively.

Just lately, the 2's (Rico Jazz Select 2M - recommended by my teacher - and Vandoren Java's) are not as easy to blow as the 1 1/2's (usually Vandoren ZZ). The easiest are the ZZ 2's. But, even with those the lower notes (C, B, Bb) are not as smooth as they once were). It's almost as if my embouchure is getting weaker, yet I practice every day.

I get a smoother lower note when going back to the 1 1/2's, but overall, and at the middle and upper end, the sound is not as clean as with the 2's (at least when I'm not struggling against what seems to be quite strong resistance.

My question(s):
1. Is this something you've heard of before - can the embouchure weaken?
2. Are harder reeds essential for a smoother sound?
3. Is there a reed that will be a good compromise between ease of playing, control and a round sound?

Thanks for any suggestions,

Stephen

 

[retread]

RJS 2M is in the 2 1/2 strength range. Try a 2S.

 

[jbtsax]

It would help to know what mouthpiece you are playing on and its tip opening. That makes a big difference when discussing reed strengths.

I have taught saxophone over 30 years and I would never start anyone on a 1 1/2 reed. In my opinion all that does is teach the student to make a sound with very little effort from the breath support or embouchure. My beginning students with their Yamaha 4C mouthpieces or equivalents play on Rico 2's for about 4 to 6 weeks until the tone control begins to develop and then they move up to #2 1/2.

If you are having difficulty playing the lowest register with anything harder than a 1 1/2 it could also be that your saxophone is leaking. I would advise getting it checked if you haven't done so. An exercise that helps to develop the low register is:

- sing "AHH" on the lowest note you can hit
- with that shape inside the mouth and throat, play low G with a big, full tone
- quickly slur down to low C, keeping the embouchure the same and blowing lots of air
- when low C sounds keep holding it as a long tone until you run out of air
- as you develop control of the low C, try this exercise at softer and softer levels
- when low C is stable, then go an additional half step lower to low B and do the same

The key points to remember are:

1. keep the embouchure firm, don't relax to go lower
2. keep the throat open and relaxed
3. use lots of air

 

[Stephen]

It would help to know what mouthpiece you are playing on and its tip opening. That makes a big difference when discussing reed strengths.

Thanks John. It's a Meyer 5M (.071 tip opening).

If you are having difficulty playing the lowest register with anything harder than a 1 1/2 it could also be that your saxophone is leaking. I would advise getting it checked if you haven't done so.

It had a check over a few months back, but not since then. The G# key is very clunky and sticky (slow to open) - I can feel it trying to open through my fingers which I never have previously. I posted in another thread recently about stupidly turn a screw on the post that it "hits" when opening. I thought I'd put it back to where it was, but perhaps not quite.

I have just put a ZZ 2 back on and it's slightly more airy at the top end, but I can get the low notes OK, they are just not as sustainable, and I have much less control over the dynamics. Maybe it's just my lack of control.

An exercise that helps to develop the low register is:

- sing "AHH" on the lowest note you can hit
- with that shape inside the mouth and throat, play low G with a big, full tone
- quickly slur down to low C, keeping the embouchure the same and blowing lots of air
- when low C sounds keep holding it as a long tone until you run out of air
- as you develop control of the low C, try this exercise at softer and softer levels
- when low C is stable, then go an additional half step lower to low B and do the same

The key points to remember are:

1. keep the embouchure firm, don't relax to go lower
2. keep the throat open and relaxed
3. use lots of air

This is maybe what I should be doing with one reed and stick to it. I'm definitely guilty of "faffing about" (as we say on this side of the pond) with various reeds. I've had so many different types now I'm not sure what works for me and what doesn't.

I had tried the Rico JS 2S (as Retread mentioned) previously, maybe I should stick to those. Or maybe the ZZ's? Or....heeeeelllppp!

 

[Gandalfe]

Do you do long tones where you start at low Bb soft, slowly getting louder and then soft again for say 10 to 20 seconds before going to the next note? Have you started working on overtones where you finger a low C and then play the next two overtones up? Do you do voicing exercises where you play low, middle, and then high Bb, and then move to B? Just curious but stuff like this will help you build an embouchure. A lot of this comes from a good teacher and with the right teacher your progress will be faster and more sure. Sometimes you can find a teacher/friend who can get you starter lessons and then recommend a full-time teacher. Enjoy.

 

[SOTSDO]

When starting out on any horn, it's always best to work side by side with someone experienced on that particular instrument. The instant feedback that such a relationship offers is well worth the price of a few lessons.

Once you get the basics down and locked in place, you can then progress on your own with one of the standard methods. But, for reed issues, mouthpiece issues, and horn condition issues, nothing beats a face-to-face relationship.

 

[Stephen]

When starting out on any horn, it's always best to work side by side with someone experienced on that particular instrument. The instant feedback that such a relationship offers is well worth the price of a few lessons. Once you get the basics down and locked in place, you can then progress on your own with one of the standard methods. But, for reed issues, mouthpiece issues, and horn condition issues, nothing beats a face-to-face relationship.

A lot of this comes from a good teacher and with the right teacher your progress will be faster and more sure. Sometimes you can find a teacher/friend who can get you starter lessons and then recommend a full-time teacher. Enjoy.

Thanks guys. I booked weekly, 1 hour, Sax lessons the week before my sax arrived (1 year and 5 days ago today - 1st August, my birthday). Apart from a few very limited times - vacations, Christmas, etc - I have stuck to those lessons religiously. I have changed my teacher though, as the first one was treading water a bit, and not teaching jazz.

My current teacher (for over 8 months) is a young woman whose first instrument is the flute, but who has Diploma in Sax playing and teaching and plays alto in an all-Sax quartet.

Do you do long tones where you start at low Bb soft, slowly getting louder and then soft again for say 10 to 20 seconds before going to the next note? Have you started working on overtones where you finger a low C and then play the next two overtones up? Do you do voicing exercises where you play low, middle, and then high Bb, and then move to B?

I can say "yes" to all of these, but not "yes, every day". I have tried all of them, and some more than others and I have several exercise books, and access websites that include these exercises and more. But, I have tended to concentrate more on high tones, and I find that these are much easier to blow now, and don't sound screechy, as they used to do.

The main low note exercise my teacher taught me is to play chromatically from the bottom to the top (high F# is as far as I go right now) but alternating with a low Bb, every other note.

Perhaps I should spend more time on long low notes, including the dynamics exercise? It's true to say that my low notes (from low C# down) are all ff and not very attractive to the ear.

 

[jbtsax]

Thanks John. It's a Meyer 5M (.071 tip opening).

This is maybe what I should be doing with one reed and stick to it. I'm definitely guilty of "faffing about" (as we say on this side of the pond) with various reeds. I've had so many different types now I'm not sure what works for me and what doesn't.

The Meyer 5M is a good mouthpiece. A Rico 2 1/2 or equivalent is certainly not too hard for that tip opening. I believe you have answered your own question. Find a reed in that 2 1/2 range and work with it to build up your embouchure by playing long tones with a clock with a second hand in your daily warm up. It will get easier to blow as your muscle tone improves. When you get tired, rest a while and then resume. The chart below shows what brands and strengths are in that general area.



One last thought, since you said you turned an adjusting screw. Play a 4th line D and while you are holding it, add the G# key. If the sound of the note changes at all, your sax is out of adjustment. It is really hard to do this accurately without a leak light. Another test is to remove the mouthpiece and put the end of the neck up to your ear. Finger low Bb and "pop" the F key in the right hand a few times. The sound you hear should have a "ring" to it like the tom tom on a drum set. If it is a dull "thud" that indicates there are leaks in the air column.

 

[Stephen]

The Meyer 5M is a good mouthpiece. A Rico 2 1/2 or equivalent is certainly not too hard for that tip opening. I believe you have answered your own question. Find a reed in that 2 1/2 range and work with it to build up your embouchure by playing long tones with a clock with a second hand in your daily warm up. It will get easier to blow as your muscle tone improves. When you get tired, rest a while and then resume. The chart below shows what brands and strengths are in that general area.

Brilliant chart, thank you - I have bookmarked the Photobucket page it's on.

Play a 4th line D and while you are holding it, add the G# key. If the sound of the note changes at all, your sax is out of adjustment. It is really hard to do this accurately without a leak light.

I tried the 4th line D and also the high D (Thumb and side key) to be sure, to be sure, (as they say where I live now). I can't hear any changes in the note. I only heard/felt a dull thud of the mechanism moving.

One observation I made is that the G# key stuck each time I tried to play it, once the test was done. It took 2 or 3 presses each time to free it.

Another test is to remove the mouthpiece and put the end of the neck up to your ear. Finger low Bb and "pop" the F key in the right hand a few times. The sound you hear should have a "ring" to it like the tom tom on a drum set. If it is a dull "thud" that indicates there are leaks in the air column.

Yes, tried that too and heard what definitely sound more like a Tom Tom than a dull thud. It reminded me of the bottom of a plastic bottle being hit with a stick.

Thanks again for all the help. Great stuff.

 

[Stephen]

I have printed out John's guidelines for blowing low notes, pinned it on my wall and have been at it for the last 2 days. I've put on a new Rico (Red) 2 (I just happen to have some new ones, but they may not be ideal for me long term). I can feel the chops straining already and the tone is good.

The only issue is that low G is "motor-boating" and squawking most of the time. The other (lower) notes are fine, right down to Bb, with occasional said problems on low G# and F#. I really can't tell if it's me or the horn.

This relates back to John's previous suggestion that I might have a leak. Can some please suggest a simple way to avoid going to the tech (mine - the nearest - is a 6 hour round trip away) immediately, and checking it out myself? I don't have a leak light.

Thanks again for any suggestions.

 

[Gandalfe]

Does it "motor boat" for your instructor? Kinda sounds like an airstream thing.

 

[Stephen]

RED-FACED CONFESSION TIME: I noticed a small piece of tissue under the octave key pad yesterday, after I had washed out the crook and dried it with tissue. Once removed it played a lot better, but not perfectly. This morning, with a new Vandoren (red) 2 reed on, I haven't heard it motor-boating at all.

The only issue is F# to G# is very slow, in terms of the G# opening. It does feel a bit sticky.

Does it "motor boat" for your instructor? Kinda sounds like an airstream thing.

Thanks. I'm not sure to be honest, as she's never played it. She's also on vacation at the moment, so it'll be another 2 weeks before I can ask her to try it.

But...It did happen at our last lesson and she was sure it was me over-blowing, and she said that she also finds low G tricky. But she didn't play my instrument.**



**I had the phrase "blow my horn", in my mind when I wrote that last sentence. The forum will note that I didn't actually use it. :wink:

 

[SOTSDO]

Assuming we're talking about the G (fingered •••|ooo) on the saxophone, I've never heard of it "motorboating" before. Low D (•••|•••), sure, but not low G.

If it is the G, then I'd take the thing in and make sure that everything is sealing up tight before I'd start messing with reeds, embouchure, and mouthpieces.

 

[Stephen]

Assuming we're talking about the G (fingered •••|ooo) on the saxophone, I've never heard of it "motorboating" before. Low D (•••|•••), sure, but not low G.

If it is the G, then I'd take the thing in and make sure that everything is sealing up tight before I'd start messing with reeds, embouchure, and mouthpieces.

Definitely G (3rd line), first 3 fingers of left hand, down. (Sounding more like "Blackhawk Down") when I blow it sometimes. But nice and smooth today, just the slow G#.

 

[jbtsax]

A bit of lighter fluid (naptha) on a Q-tip or cotton swab is effective in cleaning sticky pads and toneholes. If the town where you live has an electronics supply store, you can pick up a small 12 volt light bulb, a socket, and make your own leak light using an old device transformer (wall wart). A bit of soldering skill and some shrink tubing are helpful when doing this project.

 

[jbtsax]

Today I worked on a tenor that I believed to be totally leak free and it "motorboated" like crazy on low G! Further inspection showed that the body octave pad was not completely closing due to some friction in the octave mechanism---probably like a piece of tissue stuck under the pad! Thanks Stephen for pointing me in the right direction. That shows you're never too old to learn something new.

 

[Stephen]

A bit of lighter fluid (naptha) on a Q-tip or cotton swab is effective in cleaning sticky pads and toneholes.

I have Naptha, in my "saxophone tool kit" (mostly "cleaning kit") and I have cleaned the key a few times. I used it again today and it's playing quite well now. How long it was stay that way is anybody;s guess, but it does seem to be sticking quite regularly lately.

Today I worked on a tenor that I believed to be totally leak free and it "motorboated" like crazy on low G! Further inspection showed that the body octave pad was not completely closing due to some friction in the octave mechanism---probably like a piece of tissue stuck under the pad!

Is that the same pad as I mentioned (on the crook) or is there another one on the body? If so, I should probably clean it too.

Thanks Stephen for pointing me in the right direction. That shows you're never too old to learn something new.

"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings..." Glad to be of help instead of just asking for it all the time.