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GL Penzel & Müller

TrueTone

College Student who likes wind instruments & music
If it's not a buffet E&S, which it looks like other than the left hand bell keys-maybe an Adler or other Germanic company? If I recall right, they copied the Buffet Apogee Saxophones in the 1910s. Would make sense with the Mueller family of the M in PM being from Germany, and descended from Iwan Mueller-they would already have contacts there.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
Could be. I'll check further. Thanks for the Adler tip! However, it would be an Evette & Schaeffer System, not an Apogee. The Apogee looks like this. However, I'm not discounting that some Apogee horns also had the alternate C#/B/Bb. I'd have to check closer to determine that because I don't remember ATM. I also probably screwed up at least once when I was separating pics when I owned saxpics.com.

There were several companies that did use the right-hand C#/B/Bb, although this one's missing at least one of those. It is an E&S patent, though.
 

TrueTone

College Student who likes wind instruments & music
Here's where I attributed to Adler from, now that I found it again:
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?129040-The-Origin-of-the-Beaufort-Model
And I've never actually seen a Buffet of this time period in person, so I've not remembered much about them, other than Apogée = extra keywork, although the E&S système has neither of those extra keys like you said.


Random Tangent: almost all the vintage saxophones I see in antique stores and such that are pre WW2 are American, so make whatever observations of early 1900s Saxophonists from the south that you want of that. I will note that before 1950, Conn seems to have had the largest hold in northern AL, going by the horns from then I've seen, in both saxes and brass. King would be second for brass, and Buescher second for saxophones. For the 1950s, the most common pro sax down here seems to have been Selmer, with either King or Buescher second, and still probanly Conn, then King for brass. For Hattiesburg and the surrounding area, I haven't seen enough antiques that aren't bought from places like MusicMedic, or VintageSax.com that are around here. I do have a 70s Leblanc clarinet and 50s Holton trumpet from Hattiesburg, though; and my Series 9 was played here in the 70s. Before the 80s, there seems to have been about equal amounts of Selmer, Leblanc, and Buffet clarinets in northern AL, and leaning towards buffet for pro horns after.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
I definitely like LaPorte's stuff on SOTW. I've used some of his research on EA Couturier, especially in regard to the Lyon & Healy "Perfect Curved" horns. I really haven't done much of anything on Holton, so I'd defer to him/her on that. I can say, though, that LaPorte is incorrect with Julius Keilwerth: J Keilwerth wasn't founded until 1925. Max Keilwerth started making horns in 1923.
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
Oscar Adler. I checked. There are two of the 11+ Adler models that do have alternate C#/B/Bb over the F/E/D keys: Sonora and Triumph. The Triumph was the most expensive model and the Sonora was a small step down from that. In this case, we'd be comparing the Penzel-Mueller (I'm just going to call it "PM" in the rest of this thread) against the Sonora, because the Triumph has the zillion left side altissimo keys and neither the Sonora nor PM do. The Sonora looks like it has a D# or F# altissimo key for the right hand and a G# trill key. I mention this primarily because neither the E&S System horns (like, according to an 1899 E&S ad, they're not listed) nor the PM have either of these keys.

I did some checking in my archives: looks like the newest E&S System horns I have pics of is from 1925 (sn 28xxx). None of them have left-side bell keys, like the PM (looks like E&S introduced right-side bell keys in the 1930s). However, the G#/C#/B/Bb cluster on the PM is identical to the E&S. I checked all the Adler models I have pics of and those keys generally look like an oversized version of what you'd find on a Conn.

IIRC, there was a comment on that Beaufort thread you mention, TrueTone, that said something about the bell-to-bow and bow-to-body connectors look the same on E&S horns. They're also identical to the ones on the Sonora, so that's no help.

My current opinion, based on what I've seen, what I've posted above, and the fact that I know that E&S horns were imported to the US, is that:

A. Holton Beaufort "Imported" horns in the SOTW thread are E&S System horns. (Or, to show a specific example, this one.)
B. The PM horn is an E&S System horn.

My opinion on the Holton is stronger than on the PM, though. I'll also note that Helen mentions that the Sonora was available with split bell keys. Then I'd have to choose which is more important in the identification: the lack of some keywork or the placement the bell keys.

It's been awhile doing that research, True Tone! Thanks for getting me to do it. It was pretty fun. I actually chopped this post down significantly, too.
 
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TrueTone

College Student who likes wind instruments & music
Not a problem!
I would say the bell keys might be a better indicator, as I don't think Buffet made a left side bell keys E&S horn. (Which means with my luck one will turn up tomorrow)
The Bb key could have been removed - the Conn C Albert system I have had the alternate Eb/Ab key removed some time in the past, and just the posts are still there. (I don't remember how those Buffets have those keys set up mechanically)

The Austria on some of those Holtons makes me think they might have initially used Buffet, then switched, as I know King did the same and then switched to Kohlert.

So all of that makes me want to see the rest of the post you cut! =P
 

pete

Brassica Oleracea
Staff member
Administrator
I would say the bell keys might be a better indicator, as I don't think Buffet made a left side bell keys E&S horn. (Which means with my luck one will turn up tomorrow)
I did some checking in my archives: looks like the newest E&S System horn I have pics of is from 1925 (sn 28xxx). None of them have left-side bell keys ...
itd_3d_ani_w60_smiles_022.gif

One of the things I wrote, before chopping down my post, was talking more about the absence of the G# trill key on the ES, the PM, and the Triumph. That key is not included in the ES ad, nor in the 1930 Triumph ad that I recently added to the Adler page in Helen's/my picture gallery. Interestingly, the Sonora does have a G# trill key. The reason why I didn't mention this is because this key is often removed by techs and I can't tell, conclusively, that the PM had one and it was removed or if it just didn't have one, period. Additionally, the ES Apogee model didn't have one. I did a very quick check and I think that Buffet didn't add a G# trill until the 1940s. So, just information. Not really conclusive.

I'd also like to know how old the horn we're talking about is. I haven't done an in-depth study of ES stencils -- and there weren't many -- to tell you if stencils used their own serial number chart or something different. I do know that probably mid-1930s, Buffet restarted their serial number chart, but the PM looks older than that. Could it be the 752nd Adler? I think you can argue that point. Here's an early curved soprano. (Hmm. I'm convincing myself ...)

EDIT:
Sorry. Forgot. Regarding the Holtons, I haven't done any research, so I'm not quite qualified to make a definitive statement. However, I will again note that ES-Buffet did have an American importer, Carl Fischer. I don't have enough evidence that Adler exported anything.
 
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