Haunted Mark VI?

Al Stevens

Al Stevens

I'm working on a recording project, piano and tenor duos. One of the tunes is Poor Butterfly in A-flat. The 4th measure is rest, Bb2, C#1, D1, all quarter notes.

On my Mark VI tenor, the transition from Bb2 to C#1 breaks into a warble or a squawk on the C#1. But here's the rub. It does it only when I have pressed the "Record" button on my computer. I can practice the phrase all day long and the notes speak perfectly. Then, start recording and they fail. I spent all morning screwing with this anomoly.

So, I recorded that tune with my Ref 54 tenor, which doesn't care whether I'm recording. It works every time.

Is my Mark VI haunted? Does it know that I'm recording and counting on it? Is it mad because I put the Ref 54 neck on it?
 
I once had a very nice model 26 alto that liked to divert to "Valdres March" while I was improvising on totally non related chord changes. Scared me.

I sold it.





Julian
 
Make sure your bridge G# adjusting screw is set properly. A little bit means a lot.

Throw your mouthpiece cap (small end first) into the bell. if this solves the problem, and I'm not kidding, get back to me and I'll tell you why and provide a more permanent solution.
 
I appreciate the suggestions. Must I have the "record" button pressed when I try them? :-(

(Incidentally, the VI is fresh out of a complete overhaul about six months ago and has been my main horn with no problems on the bandstand. Go figure.)
 
Gandalfe said:
Does it change if you finger the Bb2 with the baby bis key or the 1 +1 fingering? Just curious.
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I thought so. The bis key seemed to work more reliably. Then I pressed the "record button." :cry:
 
Having had at least two horns which seemed to be possessed by evil spirits :emoji_imp: and incapable of correction by any technological means I might suggest a "saxorcism" of some sort as a last resort. (Although even that didn't work for me....)
 
Groovekiller said:
Make sure your bridge G# adjusting screw is set properly. A little bit means a lot.

Throw your mouthpiece cap (small end first) into the bell. if this solves the problem, and I'm not kidding, get back to me and I'll tell you why and provide a more permanent solution.
Click to expand...
I have heard this one several times and would appreciate to hear the explanation, if you kindly would share - thanks!
 
The mouthpiece cap is one way to go, but tradition mandates that a Champagne cork be used to satisfy purists. (Note the properly capitalized adjective in the previous sentence.) The cork also has less rattle potential as the horn is being handled.

Why? I've heard everything from "it breaks up the airflow" to something about playing with the partials of the lower notes. In any event, it's a quick and easy fix for a chronic problem for some.

I've never used it, preferring instead to make the proper adjustments to my alto, tenor and baritone embouchures instead. But, it's there for those who choose to try it.
 
A tightly curved tube, like a sax bow, behaves acoustically like a tube with a "bulge" where the curve is. This change in the cone shape of the saxophone can interfere with notes near the curve, usually low B but sometimes other notes.

Often the problem can be eliminated by removing some of the volume of the bore in the curve. American made Selmer Mark VI altos around serial number 200,000 have a small baffle soldered into the bow at the factory. Sometimes dropping a mouthpiece cap, cork, or other object into the bottom bow will also work.

The great saxophone repairman George Jameson told me the best solution is to take a hammer and bash in the bottom of the bow from the outside.
"No one has ever taken me up on it." he said.
 
Groovekiller said:
The great saxophone repairman George Jameson told me the best solution is to take a hammer and bash in the bottom of the bow from the outside.
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Arrgh! Those modifications show up quite frequently on That Auction Site. And I idiot went for an instrument with an undented bow! :-(

Back to the cork - what would one do with a straight soprano? Or are only curvy horns prone to grunting?
 
I agree completely with Groovekiller's explanation. The idea that the object in the bell "obstructs the airflow" is in error since there is no "airflow" to speak of, merely a soundwave. Some players have glued a patch of 1/16" cork on the upper side of the bell bow to make a permanent fix. I have heard of others using Dr. Scholls self adhesive foot pads as well.

The straight soprano indeed can have the warble in the low notes. The usual fix is to push the mouthpiece farther onto the cork and to play lower on the pitch of the mouthpiece---around a C concert.

As to Al's problem, the answer is simple. Murphy's law. The instrument plays perfectly up until:

-You try to make a recording
-The day before your big recital
-You try to demonstrate something for a student
-You have a big audition coming up

Seriously, sometimes trying too hard and focusing too much on a problem can be counterproductive. Try to relax, or better yet keep repeating the selection and let someone else push the record button without you knowing when it starts.

John
 
I recall this same discussion (as it applied to Selmer's Reference 54 altos) on another board in another galaxy many light years ago) and it became very heated with some name-calling, etc.

While I don't want to revisit that scene, I do want to add an opposing viewpoint so that newer/younger readers recognize there are differing opinions.

My opinion stems from years of playing experience, not repair work or scholarly acoustical studies. Simply put, I don't think the old cork-in-bell trick works.

In EVERY instance when I experienced the low-end warbles, it was because of mechanical issues (pads not sealing, inter-connected mechanisms not properly adjusted, or design-playing flaws [e.g., the design of the Ref 54 alto's left-pinky table and the player's failure to accurately finger those notes]).

A mouthpiece cap or cork down the bell never worked for me, but proper fingering techniques did, as well as mechanical adjustments.

I have no answer for the demons lurking in Al's horn when he records. DAVE
 
For what little it's worth, these are my experiences:

Straight soprano -- warbled when I held the sax at too low (i.e. clarinet-style) an angle. Solved by raising the bell.

Alto and tenor -- had this problem with a 1936 Conn 10M (low D) and a Keilwerth/Bundy Special alto (bell key notes). In both cases, increased air support solved the problem. Some saxes just need firmer support.

Of course, this assumes no mechanical problems.
 
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